https://blog.adafruit.com/2023/10/02/the-olimex-neo6502-now-can-emulate-an-apple-ii-and-oric-atmos/
The Neo6502 board above may be an interesting way to make kind of new build Apple II or one that could access Apple II accesories. Anyone looked into it yet?
I'm not sure about this project - if I'm missing something or what its real purpose is.
From what I understand, it uses a Raspberry Pi SoC (RP2040) to emulate almost everything: Video, I/O - even RAM (!). The only thing which is not emulated is it's using a real 6502. The 6502, however, is extremely well understood. That's the one component of a system, which can be very accurately emulated.
So, I don't quite get what the benefit of this new design is - compared to just using a stock Raspberry Pi to emulate everything - including the 6502. I like real retro systems. And I don't mind emulation. And I occasionally use emulators on the Raspberry Pi and on the PC even for 6502 systems which I do have as real machines. Just for convenience or to simplify development.
So, I'm not sure what to make of this project. My first impression when looking at the design was: the only reason the 65c02 was integrated as a real component, is just to be able to say "it's a real 6502 system". Since otherwise, one could have used a stock Raspberry Pi to emulate everything in the first place.
But again, I maybe missing something...
When the project was first announced 6 months ago, I was left with the impression that it was going to have a DIP40 socket so you can drop an Apple II CPU and test it and I was planning to buy one based on that assumption. Unfortunately this is not the case.
I think it started as a 'small 6502 DIY computer' for making a generic 8 bits computer experiment, but it morphed into an apple II emulator as soon as someome with with the knowledge got hold of a prototype, so yeah it doesn't make a lot of sense. I wanted to order one anyway (I like Olimex, they are Good Guys) but the minimum order for the UK is 80 euros and I didn't find anything that took my fancy.
They don't seem to have this minimum for Ireland, so it looks like they just don't want to deal with the customs overhead.
Presently it's $32US for the board, $64 for it with a case, a touchscreen and additional usb ports. It's a lot cheaper than getting MiSTer, or a DE-10 Clone, or the upcoming ~$100 Udon Taki MiSTer clone. There's emulation softare for the Oric as well, looks like C64 is in the works. In answer to the early reaction on the thread "I don't get it". The 65C02 runs at about 6.3Mhz, so several times faster than any Apple II, or C64 or other microcomputer from the 80s. I guess if you don't want to learn CC65 or LLVM-MOS, or use HDMI and USB with a board that costs about 30 Euros... For that matter, why fool around with a 80s Apples at all? It wont run Doom or Quake or Elden Ring. Kinda stupid working with 40 year old machines, isn't it? Why are you wasting your time here at all?
In post #6, "cuvtixo" wrote:
" For that matter, why fool around with a 80s Apples at all? It wont run Doom or Quake or Elden Ring. Kinda stupid working with 40 year old machines, isn't it? Why are you wasting your time here at all ?"
Uncle Bernie comments:
You are making a few points which are a valid criticism of the vintage computer hobby. But it seems you never talked to anyone who is a serious hobbyist engaging in the field, or you never visited a "Vintage Computer Festival".
Here is my take:
1. It's about collecting. People have collected all sorts of art and technical artifacts throughout human history. So why not collect vintage computers ?
2. Once you start collecting, you want to keep the machines functional, and run vintage software on them. This leads to reverse engineering of customs ICs and floppy disk preservation / emulation projects.
3. Few of the hobbyists engage in actually writing new software for these vintage machines. But those who do, find it immensly satisfying. Because unlike 'modern' software development based on complex SDKs and Class Libraries comprising 10's of millions of lines of source code (which in commercial SDKs you are never allowed to inspect, few exceptions from that), you have to build everything all by yourself. So you have to understand all the basics of software / hardware interface. You get a solid foundation most of the 'modern' programmers tender of age don't have, which makes them slaves to the system - depending on a workstation paid for by their employer. Full custom IC design has the same issue - unless you can spend $100,000 per year on the CAD suite license, you simply can't design a modern full custom IC on any submicron technology. Believe me, I know how that hurts. I'm a retired IC designer and have so many cool full custom IC ideas I can never actually get into silicon. These ideas will die with me. No capitalistic exploiter will get them for a measly salary consisting of green toilet paper that loses purchasing power faster than you can earn it (assuimg you have saved some of that green toilet paper).
This are my basic observations I have made in the field. Here are my conclusions on possible platforms:
1. The collectors will use the real vintage hardware
2. If the real vintage hardware is out of reach (i.e. Apple-1 originals), there will emerge a 'replica' scene building either 'clones' (1:1 faithful reproductions of the original hardware, using the same schematics and IC set), or building 'replicas' in the wider sense, some or all ICs of the original hardware replaced with more modern solutions. These can be much cheaper to build than the 1:1 'clones' (clone: same "DNA" as the original).
3. Some of the 'replicas' using more modern ICs actually are just running software based emulators of the original hardware. These solutions may offer ports or interfaces similar to the original hardware, but it's not guaranteed that this will work in all cases (can you plug a Z80 card for the Apple II into this 'NEO6502' board and it will work and can run CP/M ?)
4. If you already have a modern computer, such as a desktop or notebook running Linux, you can avoid all the extra costs by downloading free software based emulators. They got surprisingly faithful and functional over the past 20 years or so. You can do software development work in a powerful modern environment (Linux) and test your code on the emulator. And it will run on the real, original hardware, too. What you can't do with these software only solutions is to wire real hardware to it, as you could do with the above solutions.
So, depending on what you want to do (as a hobby, mind you), these are your choices and the price range goes from expensive (faithful clones) to zero (software only emulators). Depends on what you want to experiment with. In the end, it's a hobby, a pastime, and a learning experience.
No, you can't make any money with it. At least not in any meaningful amount worth the time invested. Go work as a Walmart 'greeter' or shelf stocker and you get more $/hour. So be warned. It's a hobby. There are a few one-person businesses worldwide who cater to this vintage computer scene, but if they are honest (and not self deluding), they never made profits (if any) worth to speak of. Much of the empty PCBs and 'kits' etc. offered are just due to economies of scale, excess, made necessary by the policies of manufacturers. For instance, JLCPCB will make you one PCB from your Gerbers, but it will be heinously expensive for what you get. But if you order 10, 20, 50 ... (depending on size), the price per PCB will come down by a lot, maybe even down to 'ridiculously cheap'. Now, if you are a hobbist or one of these one man small businesses, you build your example, and sell of the excess PCBs to other hobbyists. I think this economic mechanism is what drives a lot of the 'scene'.
And some of the offers make sense (at least for hobbyists) while some make no sense. Your choice. Your "money" aka "green toilet paper" --- get something for it before it gets you nothing.
One final observation and opinion of mine. A lot of young people who came too late to witness the rise of the microprocessor (you should have been a teen in the 1970s) utterly lack understanding of the basics of the technology involved, both on the software and the hardware side. They sure can glue together wonky ineffective apps by using modern SDKs, but they would be hopelessly lost if asked to work on a software / hardware interface level.
This is why all too many modern products - seen superficially before you have run them through their paces - appear to work, but actually, their hardware and software design has bugs / is trash. From washing machines which don't clean the wash, to 737MAX falling out of the sky. Or flat screen TVs which have software crashes from time to time and need to reboot (watch dog timer reset), so you lose some 10...20 seconds of a movie every so often. I could go on and on. But that's not the point I want to make. The point I want to make is that creative 'hobby' work with these simpler vintage computers can actually build a solid know-how foundation for hardware and software work on more complex projects using much more modern technology. So there is a valuable educational aspect, too. Colleges and Universities could let their students design and build such a vintage computer and its firmware from scratch. (No, they never could design and build a notebook computer or smartphone from scratch).
- Uncle Bernie
I think it's a cute little board for a small price.
Looks like it has access to the address and data busses on the multi-pin connector so presumably you could use it to control real world devices with software written in a variety of retro-platrofms including CP/M, Forth, Oric and Apple II amog others?
Anyway, I can sort of see a limited audience for this sort of thing, but it will never replae a Raspberry Pi or an Arduino.
But it can play Lode Runner almost out of the box...