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Hi guys!
I have been in contact with a very nice woman who is looking to possibly sell 2 early Apple II computer's that were owned by her late husband.
The first one is a Rev 0, Serial number A2S1-1194.
From what I can see from the photos she sent me, the power supply has been swapped out at some point in time and although it does have what appears to be a Rev 0 motherboard it also looks be of the 2nd type (dark green expansion slots) and not the light green expansion slots which would be correct for an apple II with this serial number.
The dates on the ROMs appear to me to match the current motherboard, and do not appear to have been swapped over when the motherboard was replaced.
She also has no way to test it, to see if it boots, etc.
With these things in mind, any thoughts on what it could be worth ??
Pics:
And my early Apple II Rev 0 motherboard number for comparison:
Any help in evaluating these for her would be appreciated!
Jennifer
Just one opinion...
Looks to be a pre-RFI motherboard, likely a Rev. C board.
Case is in somewhat rough shape, though I can't tell a lot of detail from the photos.
The power supply was replaced with a later version & the top cover appears (from the photo) to be a different shade.
The keyboard is likely the highest value of the unit. I would put it on eBay.
I think its actually a Rev 0 - note no color killer transistor near H13...
Jennifer
You are correct, didn't notice that.
Hi macnoyd!
Thanks for confirming - always good to be sure of what we have here.
Knowing what we know (and don't know) what would you estimate it's value at?
Jennifer
That's a tough one to answer Jennifer.
I guess the right answer would be "whatever a person would be willing to pay", but that doesn't answer your question.
I've seen pieces of crap looking like an Apple ][ plus with rat droppings on it go for $130 on eBay recently, and this
one is older and in much better condition, so I'm going to GUESS a starting value of $750 to $1,250 depending on the
audience's point of view. Could be more, could be less, but not by much either way IMHO. That said, about $1K if it's
in working condition, based on recent sales.
Wow, really?? For a super early A2S1 like this? That really surprises me.
I'd ideally like to get another 3 or 4 opinions of value on this, only to be absolutely sure I am being fair in whatever I offer her.
Thanks again! I do appreciate your input.
Jennifer
Hi Jennifer,
as said, at the end this is a question if there are people at ebay who start a bidding war - that happens from time to time ... sometimes not.
I search also for a Rev.0, but for a complete one (early green slots, power supply, all matching, with history ...).
As far as I see the market at eBay, there are crazy prices asked sometimes - but I never saw one going for that.
The prices I saw are about:
Apple II+ Rev. 7: 150,0 $ - 400,0 $
Apple II or II+ - both Rev. 4: 500,0 $ - 800,0 $
Apple II Rev.1 or Rev. 3 with early keys in good condition: about 1K
(this Rev.3 went for 1.2K http://www.ebay.de/itm/1978-Apple-II-Computer-not-2-plus-or-2e-Apple-Vintage-Collectors-item/222614872715?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649 )
Apple II Rev.0 (general in good condition with history documented): about 3K - 12K (depending on condition, documents and if all parts are really matching)
These said, I would estimate the shown one about 2K-3K. BUT if you have luck as a seller on eBay and the bidding war starts then you can get as much nobody else will pay in future for that
...
Ok. Let's cover that I see about this Apple II.
So far using only my iPhone screen to view the pics...
Replacement late Rev-0 motherboard (still a rev-0 MB). Not original, the rage doesn't match the serial #of the case. There is something fishy about the case cover. It has yellowed. Apple II are painted and don't change colour. The power supply is obviously wrong. Can tell about the keyboard to see if it's original or not without a picture taken from the back towards the front.
Once I know the answer to the keyboard I can let you know what I think it's worth.
If the keyboard is original and the one with the edge connector, that alone would be worth about $700 to $1000 since they are much rarer than the later datanetics (sans daughteboard and the datanetics with daughter board versions).
A Rev-0 motherboard is worth anywhere from $1500 to 2500 in this ser# range depending on condition.
The baseplate can be worth a lot also since it's a sub 2000 serial #. I'd need more pictures to say about the case.
So in parts it's worth a lot. As a whole I need to know about that keyboard.
Cheers,
Corey
Hi Corey!
Yes it has the correct early style keyboard, and the serial number on the bottom pan is as stated.
I hadn't noticed the discoloration that you mentioned. But the lid is slightly darker, however they did paint these is it not possible for the paint to be slightly off from one batch to the next?
Great info, in this condition (unknown if it works) would you say between $2500 and $3000? That sound about right?
Jennifer
The paint should match. If the cover was changed it might be from a different machine.
I would think your estimate is pretty spot on.
The woman who has this has another later Apple II - its possible the lids were mixed at some point. (I believe it to be a Rev 3 era system)
Thanks for the input!
Jennifer
Jennifer,
If my memory serves me A2S1-1194 has been on eBay before.
Steven
Hmmm that's good to know. I know I've seen A2S1-1144, as it currently for sale.
Thanks Steven!
Take care! -1144 is not -1144!
On the Facebook Apple II group is mentioned:
- it's not the original processor
- not the original power supply
(compare these pictures from original seller: https://www.flickr.com/photos/andyapple2/page2/ )
- the case has been replaced with one from a late II+
The seller is not honest!
Just to throw something else out there. The board serial looks poorly written. I haven't see it that sloppy before...
Wait, what? The pics on Page 3 of this album are of the same computer??
The motherboard in the eBay auction has the light green slots, whereas the one in the photos are dark green. They replaced the motherboard too??
WOW. So the one on eBay is a "FrankenApple"... (pieced together from various computers)
And he is asking (currently) $14,000 for it. WOW.
Jennifer
Yes, I had wondered a little bit about that too. However it still looks to be a Rev 0 motherboard due to the lack of a Color Killer Transistor near H13.
Thanks for the info though, I do appreciate it!!
Jennifer
That's what happens when your hand is cramped between the power supply and the back wall of the case.
Yeah, but you think they really wrote that after the motherboard was already in the case? I don't think so... look at all the other boards.
Have to agree about the serial number.
In some ways it's too poorly done for someone to be faking it... It definitely looks like it's been written while in a cramped position (probably with a card in slot 0) as the 5's don't even match in shape.
I thought perhaps someone had gone over the number but there is no part of the original stokes that you would expect to still be visible
We know the serial numbers come off with ISP. I wonder if someone had tried to clean the board and the serial number came off and they wrote they number they thought was there or mis-remembered. It would not be wrong for the machine to have a rev-0 motherboard in say the 1800 range with a baseplate serial number of 1194. They did sell a few hundred PCBs without cases and supplies that first year before discontinuing the practice.
Hi Corey!
Yes, I agree with that early serial number it should have a Rev 0 (light green) with a motherboard +/- due to Apple selling the boards by themselves. So not sure exactly how this woman's husband wound up with a later Rev 0 for this case, and we'll likely never know as she doesn't have any of the background other than it belonged to her late husband.
I am sort of leaning towards the ISP angle - I know the first time I cleaned a board (thankfully not an early one) I accidentally found out the hard way not to clean the number area
Thanks again!
Jennifer
I guess we will never know for sure.
That said I think the estimate of $2500 to $3000 is low. At the end of the day it's still a Rev0 motherboard and more importantly it has the very early keyboard with top edge connector and low s/n base.
While I commend your effort in wanting to offer a fair price, I think the real value would only be known by selling it at auction. It comes down to supply and demand and these are very rare items compared to the regular stuff that comes up for sale so there will be no shortage of bidders.
At the Apple assembly line? No, I don't think boards were numbered at the Apple factory after they were put in the case.
There is a reason the board serial #'s never matched the baseplate. They were NOT marked at the same time. A board was pulled from a pile and married to he baseplate. While there was a serial number range for the pile, the actual number scheme as to what matched with what was random. Mix in that the boards sold sans baseplate and case...
Later on the boards just had dates (batch dates) when they were made.
Yes, this is likely true. I actually provided the woman who has the early Apple II the link to this discussion so she could see the actual commentary, etc.
At the end of the day I will leave the decision to her, if she wants to sell it to me at a fair price great! If she decides to go the eBay route I will offer her advice on how to list it, and help her answer questions from perspective buyers. (Freely done with no expectation of compensation - I've done that with several sellers of early machines)
This all started with her thinking she had an Apple II+ machine and wanting to know an approximate value. Once I saw the PSU number she sent me I suspected that it might be a II. After receiving more pictures (the ones you see posted in this forum discussion) I told her immediately what I suspected the value was, etc., and that I would post it here for other Apple II collectors to discuss value, etc.
I would LOVE to get that keyboard for my early Apple II since mine is original except for the keyboard (has the light green slots, power supply with metal toggle switch, etc.) but I am (like most of us I assume) stupidly honest
I sincerely appreciate everyone's comments on this, and will be sure to let you all know her final decision once the time comes. (She is in no hurry to sell, so I suggested we let this discussion go on for a bit before she made up her mind)
Thanks again everyone!!
Jennifer
[quote=1978AppleII]
... And THAT Jennifer, is what makes you such a valuable part of this community. Don't ever change.
Perhaps then you should consider just making an offer for the keyboard as I assume you would resell the rest anyway? That said I think the keyboard is the most valuable part of this system.
I am not sure if 'fair value' is the same as 'what it may achieve'. Jennifer perhaps the best approach is to consider if it was to appear on ebay today what would YOU be willing to pay knowing how much the keyboard increases the value of your own system and what you can sell the rest for.
I have noticed on rev.0 boards sometimes the handwritten serial number is upside-down. I recall reading somewhere that once production of the Apple II boards was ramping up, the Apple employees had a burn-in rig set up whereby they could have several newly assembled boards in a stack, powered up for QC prior to installing them in machines. Maybe in this configuration the easiest way to write in the serial number was from the top, so the number ended up being upside down. Perhaps later on, some QC testers still using this rig would try to write the numbers so they'd end up rightside-up.
If you try and write "5851" upside down and backwards, I think you'd find it looks similarly strange.
Anyhow, I don't think this really matters, but at the same time I don't think you should dismiss this example as faked or re-written. I feel it's most likely legit.
Howie
Howie,
I think your really early Apple II has the upside down serial #? I think its also not deep black, but blue. but it is "cleanly written". All the very early that I have seen are like this. Later they were "black" and written the other way, but still neatly done.
Cheers,
Corey
Hi Howie. You wouldn't by any chance have any pics of one or two of those other boards which have the upside down trait would you?
Now that you mention it, that does look like what might have happened here - just trying to confirm if that is likely due to being written while the system was in the testing rack or ...
Thank you!
Jennifer
Hi Corey. So from your experience the color of the ink appears similar to examples you've seen as well?
The upside down writing (now that I realize thats actually what it appears to be) makes a lot of sense.
Just trying to do the best validation I can since I can't "hold" the machine to examine.
Thanks again!
Jennifer
On the early board, the colour of the ink does not match this one. Also the direction as upside and the writing is much cleaner than this one.
I think Howie has picture of his here on Fritter if you search for it.
cheers,
Corey
Yep just looked it up - his is written very clearly and with blue ink.
However my earliest Apple II Rev 0 is written in black ink. Serial number is A2S1-1491, with handwritten number 1760 on the motherboard.
I will post a pic in the original forum entry for comparison.
Thanks Corey!
Jennifer
FYI: Serial # 1760 motherboard isn't that early. I'm talking sub ser#200ish boards. There were a lot of changes by then at Apple. Apple didn't product a lot of boards/machines for the 1st few months.
Ah, understood.
I know I've seen some pictures of the racks that Apple used to burn in the new systems - hard to find any good pics of the early days at Apple.
Anybody have any good reference links? I would love to reprint some of those photos to have to display alongside the Apple at the next Vintage Computer Festival South East.
Jennifer
Hi Jennifer,
Did you by any chance purchase the 'Lot of Apple II Music/Synth Alpha Syntauri Mountain Computer Software & Manuals' from eBay?
There was some discussion about it and since looking at the completed listing I can see it also had the early keyboard you were after (but with a later motherboard & base serial number). Unfortunately for the seller they didn't highlight the rarity of computer/keyboard but rather focused on the synth gear that came with it which would have effected the bidding.
Cheers
Hi!
I did indeed. I received a HUGE shipment of goodies yesterday.
The original owner (and his family) kept EVERYTHING including original sales receipts, manuals, original diskettes look like new, etc.
I am going to be selling the MEC (Mountain Expansion Chassis) and the Syntauri with the Mountain Music systems hardware/disks, etc., its amazing all the stuff that came with this auction. (3 folders of original Syntauri manuals, a Syntauri disk holder with original disks, a folder full of original receipts, correspondence and other paperwork, the Mountain Music system hardware is in the original box, etc.)
I am still digging through the goodies!!
Jennifer
Hi,
Well done - I look forward to seeing some pictures of your completed Apple II.
Have you seen the auction for Debbie Reynolds' Apple II #0082? Shame parts have been replaced but still interesting given it's the ventless case version.
Cheers
For future reference.. I have been keeping a log of Apple II sales on ebay recently on the Apple II tab of this spreadsheet. By no means is it exhaustive but it does give some decent indicators.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BuftIbUxBPolXgeJO5Pc2wbgubR05haUMeYEjMeywLI/edit?usp=drivesdk
Been a bit distracted with my day-job. Do you have a link to the auction?
here is the post i made in the "This is laughable" forum, http://www.applefritter.com/?q=content/laughable&page=51#comment-83743.
And here's the same computer which was auctioned and sold in December of 2011:
http://www.icollector.com/One-of-the-first-Apple-II-computers-serial-number-A2S1-0082_i11437015
Jennifer
Good find Jennifer!
Looks like the same machine all right, but I notice the Apple II Logo sticker on the cover has been added.
Same dirt too, which surprises me. (I would say same photos except the cover photo is obviously different)
Not sure why the auction states $1000-$2000 ... Is that the expected value, really?
If someone paid $4500 for it 6+ years ago, why is it back in auction from (presumably) from the same estate?
Doesn't make sense unless a family member bought it, but that wouldn't make sense either. (?)
I notice a note in the new auction that states Todd Fisher bought this direct from Steve Jobs. How
could this be verified? (no mention of that in the 2011 auction)
If this were in my collection, I would clean it up. I'm relatively certain the dirt doesn't add value.
So I found this reference to Todd Fisher in my searches from an article from 1996:
http://sunsite.uakom.sk/sunworldonline/swol-04-1996/swol-04-interop.html
"No PC for Debbie Reynolds
As vendors showed off their wares at Networld+Interop, some of those networking products were allowing "the show to go on" a block away at the Debbie Reynolds Hotel and Casino.
Reynolds herself doesn't use a computer, but her hotel's attractions depend on them. An Ethernet network links sophisticated computerized audio and video equipment in the hotel's stage, movie theater, and museum, while a point-of-sale system runs the reservation operations up front.
"Of course, I am definitely a woman of the '50s and '60s. That means I'm not very computerized," the 64-year-old star said during a brief interview before a performance. "I took typing in school, so I can type very well. It's the mouse" that's a challenge, she said.
The mouse is not the only impediment for Reynolds, according to her son Todd Fisher. "No way would she use e-mail," Fisher said of his self-proclaimed traditional mom.
But his sister, Carrie Fisher, writes her novels on a Toshiba laptop, and he manages the computer network behind the scenes at the hotel. A former electronics student, Todd Fisher said he bought his first computer, the 82nd Apple II manufactured, from Steve Jobs in the early '80s. "
So that might help shed a little light on it, but I'm sure it would be hard to prove. It does appear that this is an auction being conducted by the estate of Debbie Reynolds/Carrie Fisher (at least that's what it claims to be) so I can believe it - however how did this get auctioned (and bought) apparently 6 years ago??
I dunno.
Jennifer