I've been working on an ASCII keyboard that can be used in general for the Apple II, as well as other retrocomputers. Here's a photo of the keyboard configured for Apple II. The keyboard has connectors for Apple II/II+ and for the Apple 1. It supports two different types of keymaps for the Apple II: All CAPS, and Upper/Lower with the repeat key used as a capslock. However, the keymaps can be modified to pretty much anything. This keyboard supports CTRL+BREAK for the /RESET signal, and also supports CLEAR on the Apple 1.
The keyboard can use Cherry MX keys, or Futaba MD4-PCS keys (which I prefer).
I do have to make a couple of modifications still, to make the keyboard fit properly in the Apple II case, but that will happen soon. The whole project is up on GitHub:
https://github.com/osiweb/unified_retro_keyboard
I've attached photos of the keyboard configured for the Apple II, and also with a full ASCII layout.
Beautiful work.
I want one. PM me if I can afford it.
I'm not selling the whole keyboard, but everything is open source, including the specification for the keycap set. I do have the keycap sets that I can make available (and I'm hoping some people will want to buy them because I bought a lot to get the volume discount and hope to break even eventually, even if it take several years).
It's not exactly cheap, but not super expensive either, compared with working vintage keyboards.
The breakdown for the most affordable keyboard kit would be approximately ($USD)
I will probably have some extra PCB kits made, and would be happy to provide kits of PCBs, futaba switches, and keycaps if there's demand.
So you could probably build the keyboard for $90-$120. You'd save money if you have some cherry keys and other parts already available, and may spend more if you want genuine Cherry MX keys in an expensive variety.
I recommend using futaba keys, not only because they are cheap, but because (I think) the feel closer to the originals (and I like their feel better). But I certainly understand someone might want to go for a certain flavor of Cherry MX.
But first, I do need to make some fixes to the keyboard and aligner PCBs, to make sure they fit right in the Apple 2 case.
Feel free to PM me if you are interested.
Looks awesome. If someone builds these, I'd buy at least two.
I'd be interested in some of those keycaps, and keys. Probably two or three sets.
As requested (in a PM) I am posting some info on the keys, along with close ups of the top, bottom, and side views.
The keys are made by Signature Plastics. They are the SA profile keys, made from ABS plastic. Except for the POWER key, all the keys are molded, double-shot keys. The POWER legend was dye-sublimated rather than molded, since the double-shot process would block light and produce a noticeable pattern wnen illuminated from the back. The color is "GD" and the legends are "WFO" from the SIgnature Plastics color selection. The POWER key is color "WEL", with dye-sublimated black legend.
For this set, I ordered the "F" and "J" keys to have a "deep-dish" keycap top, which is a subtle but effective way of finding the home keys if you are a touch typist without adding little bumps, which were not common at the time.
All the keys are fully specified in a spreadsheet on GitHub, in case anyone wants to order some on their own.
dfnr2 wrote: As requested (in a PM) I am posting some info on the keys, along with close ups of the top, bottom, and side views.
The keys are made by Signature Plastics. They are the SA profile keys, made from ABS plastic. Except for the POWER key, all the keys are molded, double-shot keys. The POWER legend was dye-sublimated rather than molded, since the double-shot process would block light and produce
The original power key was a special product from Datanetics. I can take very detailed photos of one if you want to try to make them. It was a double-moulded key with a white top crown fuse to it.
I'm certainly going to need to order a set from you, and I am curious if the stem is compatible with factory mechs, for people who need whole sets, as it looks similar.
One more thing, also in response to a PM question:
I tried these keycaps on an original Apple II+ keyboard, and they are do not fit well. I can press the key onto the angle post, but it ends up being a bit rotated (not the 11 deg. tilt angle, but rotated slightly with respect to the other keys). This may be due to the deformation of the stem as it pushes over the post.
I tried removing the angle adapters, and they didn't fit the bare keyposts either. I also tried slicing the edges of the "cross" with a razor blade to make the cap slide on easier, but then it's too loose.
I did find an ALPS to Cherry MX adapter here:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1720449
and that may be a decent option if someone wants to use these keycaps with an original keyboard. However, be aware that the POWER key is an actual key, not the flat plastic lamp cover on the later models.
What revision mechanism did you try them on? If you used a Model 4, with the step adapters, those are only intended for both a very specific Datanetics keycap and a lower stem pair. There are four models of keycaps used on the ][ an the ][+, off of the top of my head:
Full height Chocolate Datanetics, Half-height chocolate Datanetics, angled RFI, and Bell & Howell. There were three iterations of keyswitch types used, possibly four. I have seen RFI keyboards with and without the angle adapters, and in addition to all of that, some Datanetics keyboards used a straight stem. I have some of those switches, and they work far better than the DC50 series...I think that they are DC60s: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Datanetics_DC-60_series
In fact, I found a weird source for that switch type, and I had previously considered modding my Model 1 keyboard to use them, but I do not know if the keys will align properly without being tilted, an I have not tested if they fit. I don't know yet if the switches that I found will direct fit in place of the DC50s, either. Not that most of that matters for the scope of this, but it is mildly fascinating.
I will your keys a try on some various Datanetics switches, and the late RFI switches, as soon s I get a set, and provide what insight I may.
I also used Signature for my keycaps on several keyboard projects. The Signature OZ mount works for most Apple II and II+ keyboards. I also used the SA keys on my Apple II replacement key project but later went to SA Row 4 keys to get a little better angle. I also went to matte keytops.
I first built a replacement Apple II keyboard daughter board for use on Apple 1 with Clr Screen and Apple 1 back space and an Apple 1 cable. I got a new keycap set for the Apple II keyboard for that. The next project was a replacement keyboard that used Cherry MX switches and was compatible with the Apple II daughter board and my Apple 1 daughter board. The next project was full custom using an Altera FPGA as the controller (no microprocessor just Verilog). The result can create all ASCII codes and has a Caps Lock. I used the power light location for caps lock with a 2 color led, green for caps lock, yellow for no caps lock and off if the power is off and settable option so it can power up with or without caps lock. It also has auto repeat, Apple 1 and Apple II options and of course unlimited rollover. I have another version of that keyboard specifically for Apple 1 that contains all the audio circuitry to put the tape audio on the tv. I modified the keycap layout to move the return key to a better location and drop the repeat key but it still fits the Apple II outline. I am in the process of redoing my Web site (apple1notes.com) and plan to include all the documentation for these keyboard options and some interesting Apple 1 (and clone) case options. I am the principal caregiver for my wife and 85 years old so these things just don't happen very fast!
Thanks for sharing that information. It's great to know about the OZ mounts, and also about the Row 4 option. I loved your keyboard project. It helped motivate this project.
I find it quite amazing, and posibly ordained by providence, that I was thinking of starting a project like this and was googling information to get me started on the exact day you first posted this. I have been working on my own Apple 1 recreation for some time and I'm at the point where I want to create a keyboard for it. You have saved me an incalcuable amount of time.
I would love to get a set or two of your custom keycaps if they are still available.
Definitely! I have a lot of these keysets. PM me if you are interested.
The current PCBs work fine, but I'm about to push a round of minor fixes that will make improve the buildability of the keybaords in a number of ways, and I would like to test out the outlines on a laser cutter before finalizing.
If anyone is interested in building up a keyboard, I am very happy to help you. If you start up a thread on the build either here, on the vcfed.org forums, or the osiweb.org forums, it would be helpful to record any issues that come up, for the benefit of others.
Dave
I have a laser cutter if you need anyone to test anything for you.
Last weekend, I grabbed my working Apple II from storage and last night I briefly fired it up to test the keyboard. I noticed that hitting the RESET key seems to generate a RESET.
From looking at the schematic, I gathered that CTRL+RESET was required for a reset, and that's how I set up the keymaps. I prefer that, but it would be trivial to change. I want to make sure the behavior is correct.
So, can someone clarify the RESET vs CTRL+RESET behavior on the Apple II/II+
Please forgive me, I don't really have much experience with the Apple, having never had one back in the day, so I'm learning :-)
Dave
I'll go fire my Apple II up, but IIRC, that was user-selectable.
The ][ and early ][+ just reset when you hit the key. The safeguard of requiring the user to hold CTL was added later, around the time that the RFI models came out, to address user complaints about accidental resets.
I suggest putting a toggle switch on the board to select the behaviour.
Yeah, there's a switch on the left side of the keyboard. In this position it's CTRL-RESET, the other way is just RESET.
That would not even require a hardware change, since there is already a DIP switch on board. It wouldn't even require a change to the software, other than adding a couple of extra keymaps: one for ALL CAPS and one for Upper/Lower. The user could just select the keymap with the desired behavior.
Right now, 5 of the 16 possible keymaps are used (DIP switch positions in parentheses):
0) Full ASCII ALL CAPS (0000)
1) Full ASCII upper/lower (0001)
2) Apple II ALL CAPS (0010)
3) Apple II Upper/Lower (0011)
4) Sol-20. (0100)
I'd probably place the new keymaps at positions 6 and 7, so the only difference between BREAK and CTRL+BREAK would be the position of switch 2. (0010 -> 0110, 0011->0111)
So, is there enough demand for both types of behavior to justify using up 2 more of the 16 possible keymaps?
This is covered in the book The Apple II Circuit Description which I highly recommend. See p. 93 for the description and p. 219 for the schematic of the two-piece keyboard. See p. 218 for the schematic of the one-piece keyboard used in earlier revisions that did not have the switch.
Did you know there is a lowercase option in the two-piece keyboard scanner? It is decribed on p. 93, check it out!
I always used my Apple II+ in CTRL-RESET mode, so that's what I want, but I'd be ok with it either way.
You could use plain RESET to toggle Caps Lock mode, that would free up the REPT key, perhaps it could be used for ^ and @ since those need to be moved somewhere.
Here's the manual for the Videx Enhancer II which uses the RESET key to enable Caps Lock mode and SHIFT-RESET to clear Caps Lock, see p 5-5.
I prefer one key combo that toggles, especially if we have an indicator LED.
Perhaps a toggle switch for the more classic ALL-CAPS keymap, and then require a CTRL key combo for the upper/lower keyboard. I think the RESET could be replaced with a Tile/Caret (~/^) key and the REPT key could be replace with Grave-at symbol ('/@) to make it more like the ASR-33 on which it's base (both keys are in the keyset), and CAPS LOCK could be placed at the POWER key location. CTRL+& and some appropriate combination could be used for RESET, such as CTRL+^ (same position as RESET key), CTRL+CAPSLOCK (same position as POWER key) or CTRL-rt arrow (opposite size of row 3 on the keyboard).
On the other hand, it would be good to keep the default keymaps as close to the "classic" designs as possible, to keep the Apple II look.
The good thing is that if anyone wants a really customized keymap, it's not hard to add in a custom keymap (or modify an existing one), and recompile. That's really the point anyway. The extra keys that come with the key cap set (shown above) provide quite a bit of flexibility.
If anyone wants to have a go at creating a custom keymap, I'm happy to help.
Dave
Hi Dave,
I have a ][+ rev 7 RFI which comes with really crappy keyboard that I made the mistake of taking apart and now can't put back together.As a result I have the original keycaps. Will they work with the Futaba keyswitches?
If so, I'm interested in at least 1 kit with everything except the keycaps and possibly 3 of them - with shipping to Australia.
It may be better off for me to try to source things locally where possible.
How's the final PCB layout coming along with all the tweaks you were planning to do?
Already answered in PM, but posting for public information:
I have an Apple II+ with short-stem ALPS keys and angle adapters. I find that these keys do fit the futaba switches, but are too loose for the Cherry MX switches.
So if anyone is fixing an original keyboard, while probably preferable, is not possible, then this keyboard would be a reasonable way to salvage the original keycaps.
For someone with a keyboard that has good keys and a missing encoder, the Briel super-encoder from ReActiveMicro is a good option as well.
If, like me, you are planning on building one of these keyboards, you might find this YouTube video useful and reassuring:
https://youtu.be/LShPrPoK4dI
In it, Chris Torrence, whose YouTube channel is about all things Apple II, builds one of these keyboards in real-time.
Do you have any information regarding the COLOR of the base for the Datanetics Raised Power Light key cap. I am working on developing a replacements key cap and am having diffiuclty matching things up with the originals that I have. All information or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you. Larry
Hi
This project looks perfect as I am in need of a new keyboard.
Uploading the PCB for the keyswitches to JCL looks fine in the gerber view, but uploading the aligner seems not to have the cutouts for the keyswitches.
Probably something I am doing wrong, but its showing the cutouts for the mountings as, err, cutout :)
Any help is appreciated.
I will probably have questions on ordering the keys too, sorry.
Hi, everyone :)
I have the same question about switch "СapsLock" with light. Do you know, where to buy same switch with to position (up, down)?
Thanks in advance.
I've stumbled upon your work on this rather late. I'm really impressed with what you've done here. Futaba is an interesting choice, and I respect the cross compatibility.
I'm obviously new around here, though I'm not new to vintage equipment; I've been slowly (very slowly) rescuing abandoned old tech for a while now. I feel a little rude showing up and immediately addressing somebody directly because I want something, but I suppose pottering about posting in random threads beforehand to superficially avoid that is worse than just being direct: I don't suppose you still have any of the keycap sets left, do you? If so, please throw me a PM and let me know what you'd like for a set, supposing you still want to sell the spares!
Apologies to the admin and moderation team if I'm committing a faux pas here, I hope that's not the case. Although this is what brought me here, I intend to stick around now that I know about the place. The Apple II, IIe, and IIc are of particular interest to me, and I'll be keeping an eye on the marketplace as well as the discussion threads!
Also new to the forum, but just wanted to state my interest if any more kits were to be made
I just got my boards, key switches and key caps to build one of these keyboards. More information to follow.
20220829_150248.jpg
I went with the Futaba keys. I'm going to assemble to fit in an Apple ][+ or clone case.
Assembled encoder board except for the Atmega 328P, which I have on order.
20220829_175105.jpg
Keyboard assembled... pretty easy.
20220829_220841.jpg
OK... So I finally have the Atmega 328P chips in... What a pain in the butt to get due to the "chip shortage".
Anyway... I know basically how to program these chips using my Mnipro TL866-II+... And I think I have built the firmware... BUT... What I don't know is whether this requires the same fuse settings as I'd program for most other things that use this like an Arduino UNO... and whether I just need to program the "CODE" part, which I assume is from the .hex file that gets built from the URK firmware source... or whether there is also something like a keymap that needs to get written to the "DATA" part of the 328P?
Anyone know??? I've re-read the README and stuff on the github and if it's there I'm an idtiot and missed it...
Otherwise I guess I get to just experiment...
Either way once I get it figured out I think I will document it here and also suggest adding the programming instructions for the Minipro to the github.
Oh... I did modify the code for the key mappings so that the keyboard can generate full ASCII... My mapping for the normally unavailable keys for a ][+ (or a few that normally don't work in u/l case mode like @ and ^) are as follows:
@ CTRL-0^ CTRL-6| CTRL-1\ CTRL-/[ CTRL-,] CTRL-.{ CTRL-8} CTRL-9_ CTRL--~ CTRL-2` CTRL-7
This is sort of similar to what Videx did with the "Enhancer II" keyboard encoder replacement. I think it is fairly intuitive, and should make the keyboard work well with a lot of software that needs the full ASCII charset, particularly a lot of things developed after 1983 (when the //e came out).
You are right, I should add programming instructions for the minipro, and also for some other programmers, to the Github wiki. I haven't tried programming the chip with a minipro, but I do have one, so I will try it out. I believe the minipro software has a way of setting the fuses. The fuse settings are: extended: 0xFF High: 0xD9 Low: 0xD2
I have programmed these boards with and Atmel ICE and also a cheap MKII in-circuit programmer, available on amazon, eBay, or Digikey. I have used Atmel Studio 7 with those programmers, but I believe that AVRdude will work as well.
The keymaps are all compiled into the hex image, so no separate uploads are needed. I think that modifying the keymaps to add some extra codes is a great idea. Ther are perhaps some additional optimizations that could be done for the u/l map, like replacing the REPEAT and RESET keys with something more useful.
Information about programming Atmel 328P including setting the fuses can be found on page 3 of this thread:
https://www.applefritter.com/content/dan-sd-card-disk-controller?page=3
I think this should work for programming a 328p with a Minipro TL866-II+
minipro -p 'ATMEGA328P@DIP28' -c code -w ./unified_retro_keyboard/firmware/asdf/src/asdf-v1.6.3-atmega328p.hex -f ihex -E
minipro -p 'ATMEGA328P@DIP28' -c config -w ./fuses-urk.cfg -e
fuses-urk.cfg:
lfuse = 0xd2
hfuse = 0xd9
efuse = 0xff
lock = 0xff
fuses_lo = 0xd2
fuses_hi = 0xd9
fuses_ext = 0xff
lock_byte = 0xff
Bringing some life into an older, but very useful thread...
I am building from dfnr2's design. Boards have been submitted.
kbd-classic.png
I'm doing mine with Cherry MX switches. Browns for me, as I particularly like their feel.
The board I did will only support Cherry MX switches. I will have four extra boards. If anyone is interested, PM me. Bare board set (keyboard, aligner, and interface) would be $30+shipping. I also got a quote for doing the aligner board in aluminum, to provide a good structurally stiff assembly. Not cheap in small quanity, but if there is enough interest (at least four people) I do a run. Aluminum aligner board would be $60.
What's your source for appropriate keycaps?
And the space bar's metal truss rod?
I reached out to dfnr and he has a few key cap sets left. Otherwise, I'd end up doing what dnfr did and ordering from Signature Plastics. As far as the rod goes, I'll bend my own. I have a good selection of appropriate wire from model aircraft pushrods. That will do for the time being, though I might order some plated wire later.
baldrick wrote in post #43:
"What's your source for appropriate keycaps ?"
"And the space bar's metal truss rod ?"
wpmcnamara answered in post #44:
" I reached out to 'dfnr' and he has a few key cap sets left. Otherwise, I'd end up doing what dnfr did and ordering from Signature Plastics.
As far as the rod goes, I'll bend my own. I have a good selection of appropriate wire from model aircraft pushrods. That will do for the time being, though I might order some plated wire later."
Uncle Bernie comments:
KEYCAPS FROM SIGNATURE PLASTICS
I was the guy who ordered enough keycaps sets via 'dfnr' to enable him to do the recent minimum order at Signature Plastics (so unless you need 50 sets, forget ordering from them). I intend to use them for Apple-1 keyboards I shall design to my own specs (I dislike the Datanetics style and layout, despite the reproductions offered by Michael Ng of HongKong (Ebay seller: newton-computer) are really nice. For me, it's more a matter of fast typing. Utility.
I could part with a few of these keycap sets, but go ahead and buy them from 'dfnr' first. Once he is sold out, you may ask me here via PM (use the 'send PM' button). Sorry - I will not ship anything to the EU, Switzerland or Norway, due to their new customs rules / paperwork which are atrocious and totally unacceptable to waste any of my RQLT with.
METAL RODS
For the metal rods, I recommend the #87131 RND STAINLESS STEEL ROD 1/16" (1.59 mm) "Made in the USA" by K & S Precision Metals. I seem to recall I bought them from Grainger, but I'm not sure. It turned out that bending them precisely enough is not easy. You probably need to build a jig (i.e. from a metal profile). The slightest deviation from the proper length seems to cause a slight "snap action" in the space bar, which feels nasty.
WARNING: Counterfeit Cherry MX key switches !
For those who want to use Cherry MX key switches, buy them at official distributors (either Digikey or Mouser, one of those has them). All the Cherry MX looking keyswitches I found on Ebay are Chinese fakes with very lousy guts, their switch contact is just stamped into a dubious, already corroding piece of sheet metal. I wrote about these counterfeits on Applefritter and provided a photo of the lousy guts. A far cry from the famous "gold crosspoint" contact used in the real Cherry keyswitches. Which are not that terribly expensive, compared to the key caps, PCB, and the other parts. I can also sell you a set of "black" MX key switches with the key caps. But don't ask me before 'dfnr' is sold out.
- Uncle Bernie
The aligner/switch mount arrived today. These are 1.6mm aluminum PCBs. I've got regular FR4 versions in with the PCBs, which will hopefully arrive tomorrow.
IMG_20240510_191728040.jpg
IMG_20240510_191734699.jpg
Mounted all the switches. As I noted, I'm using Cherry Browns.
IMG_20240510_213226780.jpg
I ordered the switches off Amazon and would lay odds better than 50/50 that they are knock offs.
IMG_20240430_144739534.jpg
IMG_20240430_144607942_HDR.jpg
The "repackaged in China" is just a bit suss...
Still, if they are knock offs, they are well made ones so I'm not stressing over it.
IMG_20240510_215309926.jpg
Should probably get my act together and get the ATMega2560 on order...
In post #46, 'wpmcnamara' wrote:
" Still, if they are knock offs, they are well made ones so I'm not stressing over it. "
Uncle Bernie comments:
Since you have already opened a few you can easily tell if they are knockoffs. Alas, your photo in your post #46 has too low resolution to see the details of the switch contact. If it is just stamped into the base material, it's a knockoff. If there are two gold crosspoint switch elements for which Cherry is famous, these are either the real deal or very faithful knockoffs.
The guts of the fake vs. real ones can be seen in this thread I posted on December 2022:
https://www.applefritter.com/content/another-scourge-china-fake-cherry-mx-keyswitches
I think a lot of onlookers of this new thread would like to know if your keyswitches bought in China are counterfeit or not. The construction of the actual key switch contacts is the best tell.
I was quite impressed about the plastic parts of these Chinese counterfeits I investigated in my above thread. They were well made - there were a few small differences in the snap-together lugs, but these don't matter for functionality or durability. What really matters for a key switch is the quality of the switch contacts. And if you did not get the real (Cherry) deal here, you got defrauded. The durability of the spring and the plastic parts matters, too, but these are almost trivial to get right, so there is a good chance that these components are OK even in counterfeits. The switch contacts, not so much. This is where the know-how is. BTW, the patents on the Cherry gold crosspoint switch contacts have long expired. So if the Chinese wanted, they could copy this detail, too. But it is not trivial to make these small contact components in the right way and to attach them such that they won't fall off too soon. The metallurgy as such can be analyzed. But copying the manufacturing process requires more work. Or a Chinese industrial spy planted in the Cherry factory.
- Uncle Bernie
Since I have a few more than I need, I'll sacrifice one and see if I can get decent pictures of the contacts.
IMG_20240511_212022073.jpg
IMG_20240511_212210867.jpg
That's about as good as I can get off my phone. Would need to setup the DSLR for anything better. The contacts aren't stamped out of the base material.
For comparison, here are the contacts from a Gateron Brown Pro (KS-9). Gateron is Cherry clone brand.
IMG_20240511_214625203.jpg
IMG_20240511_214539665.jpg
Not great photos, but you can easily see the contacts have been punched out of the base material.
For context, the Gateron were $25 for 65. The Cherry were $50.97 for 60. In this case, Gateron are known, cheaper Cherry clones, so its not like they were being passed off as the real thing.
In post #50, 'wpmcnamara' wrote:
" For context, the Gateron were $25 for 65. The Cherry were $50.97 for 60. "
Uncle Bernie comments:
You can get the genuine Cherry MX black stem for $0.653 at qty 500 from Mouser, use this link to see:
https://www.mouser.com/c/?q=Cherry%20MX
The brown stem ones are a bit more expensive when bought at Mouser, a tad over $1 each, and it does not go down much if you buy 1000+ pcs, even at 1000, it's over a dollar.
(Prices of course are subject to change, in you look in 10 years, due to hyperinflation, it might be a million or a billion dollars per switch ;-)
So if you got the real deal, genuine Cherry MX, you got a little bit better deal for the brown stem ones when buying from China. At least the crosspoint switch contacts seen in your photo of post #49 seem to be Cherry style. Not proof enough that they are genuine, but for sure, better than the stamped contacts of the Gateron ones. Which IMHO are OK for hobby projects / Apple II replacement keyboard, if being on a small budget, but on the other hand, how much do you save if taking Gateron over the real Cherry ones ? $10 or $20 per keyboard ? How much RQLT do you put in building the keyboard ? How much is one hour of your RQLT worth ? As far as I'm concerned, I only go for the best stuff, especially for food, if you buy the good, organic stuff and cook at home, and avoid the "big food" boxed crap, you may need $300 per month per person instead of $200 for food, but you may save the $500000 for the chemo "therapy" of the cancer you might get from the "big food" poison. So being a cheapskate is not always clever, especially when it comes to food.
But for key switches, no such worries. Pay for them whatever you want to pay. But if you pay the price for genuine Cherry and get Gateron or other knockoffs, you got defrauded. And this is the key point. Honest sellers will tell you what you get.
- Uncle Bernie
P.S.: another tell would be the springs found in the switches.
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