I'm thinking about getting a 22-36" digital flat panel HDTV. I doubt the stock PCI Video Card in my G-4 466 DA will drive the RGB inputs on one of these babies at standard HDTV resolution. (1368 x 768 IIRC?) ISTR my stock video card didn't handle some kind of video acceleration under some older version or other of OSX way back in the day when I was setting up double booting.
What's the best video card for the most recent STABLE version of OSX that will run on my paleolithic CPU and output standard resolution to the RGB ports on a new HDTV?
How well do HDTVs work as primary monitors, or would I be better off sticking with my 21" Radius CRT?
Do modern video cards output directly to HDI (?) so I could use RGB output (modern video cards still have that don't they?) for the Radius and use the HDTV as a second monitor?
jt - OSX semi-noob! 
Check around, and I'm sure you'll find most of the TVs you look at come with a VGA input.
Watch any LCD TVs you're looking at for their native resolution. That's what you'd be running at if using it with a computer. 1920 x 1080 and 1368 x 768 are what you're likely to see.
Back when I had my DA, I was using a flashed Geforce IImx, which provided nice video and modest 3D in Tiger
(Just checking, by "RGB" do you mean "VGA 15 pin" or the three-cable "Component Video" jacks?)
A better way to drive a modern TV is via the HDMI port. HDMI is a superset of DVI, and a inexpensive cable is all you need to hook most DVI-equipped computers to a TV. The only limitation you'll run into is that some *really old* video cards don't support some HDTV-specific features. (They won't handle interlace and thus fail at doing 1080i resolution while 720p might work all right, for instance.) The oldest machine I've connected to my HDTV (Sony WEGA LCD projection) was a 867Mhz G4 Powerbook, but it wouldn't surprise me if the card in your G4 desktop would work just fine with an adapter cable, assuming it's at least the Radeon model. (Bets are probably off if it's the Rage 128.)
(Edit: It occurred to me that you might have a video card that has VGA and ADC jacks, no DVI. If that's the case you'll need to stack this on your ADC port in front of the DVI to HDMI cable )
That said, it's unwise to buy a TV set for your only monitor. Among other issues normal TV sets are generally set up for overscan (the TV picture scaled slightly larger then the physical size of the panel, to hide the garbage you'll see on the tops and bottoms of broadcast frames) which means your menu bar disappears off the top. You can set up MacOS to compensate but that in turn creates black areas around the whole display. And they're also rarely as sharp as monitors since the scaler generally runs *all the time* to smooth and rescale incoming video feeds to fit the overscanned display area. It's thus hard to get the tack-sharp pixel-to-pixel mapping to the physical panel a computer monitor at "native resolution" gives you.
That said, some smaller HDTVs in the size range you're looking at specifically have "monitor modes" without overscan and even VGA ports that act like you'd expect VGA ports to act. The only problem you run into there is they usually use 720p-ish resolution panels (1280x720 or 1368 x 768) and thus give you a much lower resolution display then a similarly sized or even much smaller computer monitor. 1368 x 768 is typical of a 13" screen laptop or 15" standalone monitor, while a 23" computer monitor is usually 1680x1050, or even 1920x1200. The end result of blowing up such a low resolution to 30-some-odd or even 22 inches is a serious "Fisher-Price My First Computer" vibe.
Personally I'd suggest splitting your budget into a $200-ish pile for a 22-23" computer monitor and using the rest to get a separate TV, rather then trying to use the same thing for both functions unless your only goal for wiring the computer to the TV is to play games or look at pictures once in a while. You'll be happier then you would be trying to serious work on a TV-quality screen.
--Peace
Video on the G4 DA was AGP 4x, not PCI, and the stock was ATI Rage 128 Pro, ATI Radeon 7000 optional, and nVidia GeForce2 MX on some models, all with VGA and ADC ports (no DVI).
I'm impressed you're still using a 21" Radius. That must be around 18 years old. I finally threw mine away a couple of years ago. 5-BNC. It was a great die-hard monitor.
Thanks for the exact info, when I was editing my original post here to tweak it for the start of a Parallel Thread over at the 68KMLA, I remembered the Video Card was AGP.
I came back over here only to discover that It's STILL impossible to edit the first post in a new thread! Hence, the inaccuracy remains!
OOPSIE!
From the sound of eudi's post, (thoroughly comprehensive as always, eudi, thanks!) I should be looking for an AGP card capable of driving the Radius' 5 BNC inputs as my primary monitor with a second, digital, output for one of the HDTV resolution standards.
If none such are available in an appropriate AGP card, might I use a PCI Video Card for one purpose or the other and an AGP Video Card for the more demanding of the two requirements?
Remember, I'm a WiFi Vagabond, so consideration of playing any kind of video content from my non-existant high speed home connection would belabor a moot point.
jt
BTW, Radius CRTs ROCK!
How are you driving the Radius monitor now? I'd assume you're using an octopus cable from the ADC port on your video card to the BNC connectors? If that's the case you can get a similar octopus cable with a 15 pin VGA connector on the other end. Then in theory you could use an ADC-DVI dongle + DVI-HDMI cable to hook up to a TV.
Admittedly, I'll admit ignorance as to whether the video cards in that old a vintage G4 actually support using both the ADC and VGA connector at once.
--Peace
HD-15 VGA -> 5 BNC from the G-4
HD-15 VGA -> HD-15 from the 6360 Video Server.
The Radius switches back & forth with the push of a button!
Check out alk's posts in the sister thread over at the -MLA.
thanks again, eudi!
jt =8-D
From the MLA thread:
Ok, I've only got one more hoop to jump thru to have a PayPal account set up the way I think I want it. I'm all signed up on eBAY again and I'm watching for Nvidia GeForce 4 MX AGP cards between $35 & $50!
Question: the AGP GeForce4 MX has two Connectors/Video Out : ADC / DVI
Which connector do I use (DVI as it doesn't have sound?) and where do I get a cable that adapts it to the 5 BNC inputs on my 21" Radius CRT. :?:
The HD-15 VGA port on the Radius is dedicated to my 6360 VideoServer.
Which connector do I use (ADC?) and where do I get a cable that adapts it to the HDMI (?) input on a Digital TV? :?:
jt: ole' coot waaay out of his depth in dealing with all this newfandoogled techno-crud.
p.s. found an interesting factoid right here on 'fritter: http://www.applefritter.com/node/22078
If you get a card like the one Alk linked to (which has DVI and ADC for those of you following at home) then you'd need a DVI to VGA adapter, then run a VGA to BNC-5 cable for your radius.
The ADC connector is useless unless you have an Apple ADC monitor, or you're willing to track down the Belkin ADC adapter kit.
Shop for a TV that includes a DVI or VGA input (Most LCD TVs will come with a grab-bag of inputs, and usually include a VGA or DVI input along with the usual HDMI, s-video and component inputs), then just go DVI to DVI, or use a DVI to VGA dongle if the TV has VGA. Adapting to HDMI from the DVI will give you no benefit above going DVI -> DVI, since the signals are the same. Regardless of the connector, you'll still need to find a path from the audio-out on the Mac to audio-in on the TV or the external amplifier of your choosing (I'd recommend the latter, as no TV's built-in speakers will boom as well as even a mediocre home stereo setup).
Thanks again, eudi!
I've found a couple of very interesting gizmos if a pure cable based solution isn't practical.
VGA to HDMI Analog/Digital Video Converter, Also for SVGA, SXGA
http://www.stsi.biz/sx-vh-01.html
Component Video + Audio to HDMI Converter, 1080p Compatible
http://www.stsi.biz/sx-ym-01.html
I could very well be wrong . . .but getting the sound into the HDMI connection seems to me to be the Achilles' heel of this project. :?
jt =8-\
p.s. As for alternate/higher end solutions, my 5.1 receiver (?) is down for repair/replacement. BestBuy is apparently discontinuing their $199 (bare) receiver (?) unit and the employees expect a new unit introduction at about the same price point . . . any time now. =8-P
I think you're right about feeding the discreet video & sound outputs into a 5.1 receiver (?) and breaking them out to the HDTV & 5.1 separately opposed to combining for direct feed as HDMI into the HDTV.
I've also registered for a pair of converter box coupons . . . they'll mail out on 4/22 . . . IF I can trust the gov'mint.
p.p.s. I've researched the converter boxes and found a top rated one with S-Video & stereo sound out. It'll be interesting to see what a Digital->S-Video/stereo sound output looks & sounds like on the Radius 21" CRT at 640x480 as inputto the Apple TV Tuner Card in the 6360. I think DVDs & VHS look snappier off my VideoServer than played straight to a standard analog TV's scanline display as it is. S-Video rasterized straight to progressive scan (?) 640x480 ought on a high quality CRT monitor ought to be quite nice!
Not to mention how it'll sound on the Altec-Lansings as compared to an analog TV's crappy speakers!
Most TVs have a set of plain old audio input jacks next to the HDMI port, and will autodetect (or can be configured manually) to play sound piped in through those instead. When using a PowerBook on my TV I use the DVI-HDMI cable and a plain-old RCA to mini-jack cable plugged into the headphone jack. Works fine.
Obviously you don't get 5.1 Dolby Surround Sound doing that, but old Macs don't support it anyway, so...
--Peace
Hi, eudi!
I popped into the local hhgregg and the salesman turned me onto the YamahaRxv365. Haven't researched it yet, but the ass end of the thing looks mighty impressive.
I'll clear off a workbench and poke around the innards of the ole RCA video receiver to see if there's anything that EVEN I MIGHT BE ABLE TO FIX!
If not, as is most likely, I've got one reasonably priced receiver to consider. I can't wait for the converter box coupons arrive, at these prices, I'll buy two just to have a spare. With HD rabbit ears I "should" be watching at least SOME TV for the first time since the year 2000!
thanks again for the help,
jt =8-D
Hi, eudi!
I popped into the local hhgregg and the salesman turned me onto the Yamaha RX-V365. Haven't researched it much yet, but the ass end of the thing looks mighty impressive.8)
http://amazon.bellmktg.com/Yamaha/Receivers/RX-V365/rxv365bl_back_large.jpg
Maybe it'll better handle what I want to do, I'll have to map out the cabling. Maybe I should actually inspect the ancient RCA receiver's tuschie before poking around its entrails with the multimeter?
Whatever! Just for practice maybe I'll clear off a workbench and poke around in the ole' RCA video receiver to see if there's anything that EVEN I MIGHT BE ABLE TO FIX! ::)
If not, as is most likely, I've got one reasonably priced receiver to consider. I can't wait for the converter box coupons arrive, at these prices, I'll buy two just to have a spare. With some HDTV rabbit ears I "should" be watching at least SOME TV for the first time since the year 2000!
again, thanks for the help,
jt =8-D
edit: OOPS! Double posting alert! Somehow in editing typos the, slowly running, site doubled up on my post . . .GRRRR!!!!
Back again! Found a link to the owner;s manual.
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/YEC/AV_Receivers/Manual/RX-V365_manual.pdf
. . . I took a look at the tuchus of my . . . erm . . . ANCIENT beyond belief . . . RCA receiver and decided it was just so much dumpster ballast. No HDMI inputs AT ALL. I guess you can't ask for much from a receiver that's prolly about 7 or 8 YEARS old!
That was WAAAAY before any DTV standards were developed. My bad. ::)
I can't get the Yamaha .pdf to download and open. I'd better ring up of HP Tech Support and make sure I won't bork anything by upgrading to the newer/est rev of 'reader.
ciao,
jt =8-D
Do you really need HDMI on your stereo? I'm using a circa-1992 Technics/Panasonic receiver and equalizer, hooked to a pair of Polk Audio speakers, and I'm pleased as punch.
Here's how I see you connecting everything:
...no idea why, but you just come across as a facial hair kinda guy.
Actually, I think I made you look like Trucker Jesus.
Definitely made me chuckle this morning. Thanks!
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
. . . and the tile floor here at Brueggers is VERY uncomfortable!
Yup, yer' right, but the beard's trimmed short & you'll need to edit in a NY Mets logo onto the ball cap for accuracy's sake. I'm down here in NC now, but I've still got the 7 5/8 fitted o-ffi-cial Mets cap (in the old school orange on blue version, of course!)on the back seat of the car for to shade them thar A-vi-a-tor Sunglasses.
You got almost EVERYTHING spot-on eeun!
I even got the paleolithic Pioneer stereo receiver from my (just plain wonderful, no man could be more lucky!) ex-wife in the split. However, it's waiting to be paired up with some big ole' speakers I nabbed at Goodwill. They'll be going into my front bedroom/office/HackerHaven.
thanks, that REALLY made my day, eeun!
jt =8-D
p.s. just re-grew the beard after going about 3 years w/o one a-tall, but it'll have to go if the lady that's been in my life really wants me back. She's a "no facial hair allowed" kinda gal. ::)
p.p.s. Just remember that ole' saw . . . If momma ain't happy . . . ain't NOBODY happy!
A bit late, but...
+1 on that being a totally awesome way to render a wiring diagram. ;^)
--Peace
But I might have done a big OOPSIE! :o
I bid on/won one w/32MB of VRAM, Have I shot myself in the . . .
Will one w/32MB VRAM do the job?
jt :?:
. . . I won an nVIDIA GeForce4 MX 64 MB on this go-round all right . . . but maybe the packaging and shipping costs are a TEENSY bit on the extreme side . . .
. . . . ships in original packaging with all the trimmins' . . . nestled inside a Power Mac G4 Dual 1 GHz MDD.
jt =8-D
Looks more like Jerry Garcia to me.
WHAT? You mean I look DEAD?
jt =8-O
Arrived a day early, got here before the 32MB card I bought a couple of days BEFORE!
Boots nicely into OSX 10.1.2 and the ole' 21" Radius CRT is tickled with 2048 x 1152 at 75 Hz.
But when I tried booting from OS 9.2.2 on the other HDD, it comes right up at that res and then blanks out at a much lower rez. Any clues as to what's up with that? Hitting reset does squat, I've got to flip the surge protector off & reboot to get anything back.
The card had a VGA port on it so it was hooked up about 10 min. after arrival. SWEEEEET!!!!!!!!!
jt :?
Hey, hey, hey now....
Jerry LIVES!
I hope you're talking about the [real] Jerry Garcia and not allegations of my resemblance to THE MAN in eeun's drawing of me, an incredible feat of visualization, sight unseen.
BTW, there was a tongue in cheek play on words (dare we say: pun?) intended within my remark.
jt
I'm glad all those years of art school finally paid off
You still haven't edited in the changes I suggested, bud! ::)
Lop off a few pounds too while you're at it.;)
Sorry to disappoint you, the Radio Shack manager suggested their flat rate of $89.00 + Tax to fix the receiver, not that I'd EVER ask CrapShack to fix something! Heck, they barely even have any parts anymore . . .
I did nab 2 PRAM Bats there for the G-4s for a "measly" $19.95 ea. YOOOOWCH!!! :O
I got another IDENTICAL system for $81-n-change (SHIPPED no less!!!!) off eBay as my temporary fix. After replacing two fuses on the MoBo, my Receiver is powering up, but no sound out as yet. =8-b If I can fix it or source a Receiver-only on eBay, I'll have 5.1 Upstairs and Downstairs!
So far I've got the CD feeding the Receiver's optical port, the tape deck's a standard RCA Stereo connection. The Digital->Analog conversion feeds thru S-Video & standard RCA Stereo. Looks just AWESOME when the Tuner Card in the 6360 converts it to 640 x 480 pixels on the 21" Radius CRT . . .
. . . and EVERYTHING sounds just plain WONDERFUL!
Wynonna really rocks the joint in 6 Speaker Mode!
The Sony combo DVD/VCR is the ONLY sticking point remaining. VCR half of it is cookin' NoPro, but the DVD's Coaxial Digital Sound Output is paired with RGB Component Video Output ONLY (but it CAN be set to output 480p! =8-D ) and the DVD's 5.1 surround sound is freakin' AWESOME! But I've got no way to pair the Video signal with the sound output, however, I've got a few options-n-questions for the troops . . . of course! =;-)
Is there an inexpensive conversion from RGB Component Video Output to S-Video? :?
Do modern HDTVs have inputs for RGB Component Video/480p? :?
If so, I can just bypass the Video-in on the receiver when I get my HDTV. As I'd said, the DVD's Coaxial Digital Sound Output is already implemented in ROCKIN' 5.1 already!
I can always just unhook the DVD's Coaxial Digital Sound Output and run the DVD thru the VCR outputs as I've been doing . . .
. . . then again, would a splitter cable allow me to feed the DVD from the VCR's Composite Video Output and match that up with the DVD's Coaxial Digital Sound Output? The Sony Combo DVD/VCR takes care of the A/B switching. The only problem might be the concurrent video feed into the VCR-input, but the switching circuitry of the Receiver OUGHT to handle that just like it handles the digital->analog concurrent feed, right?
jt: still not firin' on all cylinders quite yet . . . =8-/
You weren't intended to be heavy...just hairy
Converting RGB to s-video requires some circuitry...not too complicated if you've got some soldering experience.
Like This.
I was going to make a few up for my Atari stuff, but the ST's video is wonky and I'd still need a line doubler for the ST's output.
Can you tell me more about the DVD player output? You mention its RGB Component Video Output, and I'd me amazed to see a consumer DVD player with RGB outputs. Confused, I am.
Your setup is becoming more complicated than I can hold in my mind. Might I suggest some drawings of your proposed arrangement
I'm certain he means YPbPr component video, assuming he's in the US. RGB is reasonably common in Europe thanks to SCART, but it's rare as hen's teeth in the US. Here YPbPr is pretty common on any DVD player that sells for more then $50.
My impression is that this thread is getting to the point of overthinking the problem without enough information to go on. Namely, it doesn't sound like he's bought the TV yet. And the best way to wire up this rig is going to depend on what the port layout on the back of the TV is.
In my case, for instance, I have an amp/tuner that can switch composite and S-Video, but I *don't use that feature* because my TV has *seven* sets of video input jacks (four composite/Svideo, two that also include Component, and the HDMI port), all of which also include stereo audio jacks. And the TV also has stereo and optical *output* jacks and the ability to disable the internal speakers. So... what I do is do all the video switching with the TV, and for analog purposes leave the tuner input setting to the TV's output, meaning switching inputs on the TV takes care of the audio switching as well. The only time I need to touch the tuner input settings is when I want to switch between digital input sources. (The DVD player and Satellite box both offer optical outs.)
A different TV will have a different port layout, so while the above is the "best" way of wiring my particular system it may *not* be for Trash80, so... I'd say buy the TV you like and then worry about exact wiring diagrams. Otherwise you're probably going to *way* overthink it. Just make sure the unit comes with at least one each of composite, s-video, component, and HDMI/DVI (VGA would be a bonus) and you'll be able to cover up any shortfall with an external switchbox.
Yay.
--Peace
Nope, nabbed one just last night!
I found a great deal and researched the shitzle outta the thing (basically, I looked at the back and then ran to Panera Bread to look at the mfr's web page specs) and went back to hhgregg to buy it!
HOT off the Presses at the 68KMLA:
BTW, eudi, you were right on about the YPbPr component video. However, in the Combo DVD/VCR's (EXCELLENT Manual, by Sony, obviously NOT by HP!) docs, I discovered that it can be switched over from vanilla YPbPr component video to 480p! It ALWAYS pays to RTFM! =;-D
Anyways, that's the story from the viewpoint of HP_Mini. I haven't even cracked the case of the brand spankin new to me, $335.00 (shipped!) dual gigahertz MDD to install the new PRAM Bat and 500GB EIDE drive yet.
Guys, what's the max partition size & best format for OS 9.2.2?
OH! eeun! the RCA 5.1 works with EVERY COMPONENT now! I was spinnin' a Mary Chapin Carpenter CD on the 101 Disk Changer, and really getting into SIX Speaker Mode, when I heard a knock on the divider wall coming from next door. I looked at my cell phone and . . .
. . . 1:30 in the freakin' AM!!!!!!!!! OOPS!!!!! ::)
jt: combinin' early 2k Audio with some (relatively) current Video!
Well, dare I say W00t!
You need to get a 90-degree swivel for the TV now...
Biggest. Portrait. Display. Ever.
AYUP!!!!!!!
erm . . . ahhhh . . . mayb . . . ::)
jt: not QUITE THAT CRAZY . . . YET!
p.s. hrmmmmmmm . . . . no RFI issues like the Apple Por . . .
p.p.s. . . . and it WOULD make browsing a LOT more conven . . . ::)
I buy them off sellers on eBay. You can get a bundle of at least four of them with shipping for $19.95. Never had a problem with any of them.
I thought of doing that, but I needed one like [b]right now[/b] for the 466 DA and I wanted one for the new (to me) Dual GigaHertz MDD I snagged off eBay.
BTW, I've snagged another RCA RT2250 A/V Receiver off eBay today. The whole set I got earlier sounded so good even just playing music, I want to set my [b]extra[/b] 5.1 worth of speakers downstairs.
I figure the one I got today just [b]might work[/b] despite the limited testing done by the seller. If not, my original Receiver powers up now that I've replaced 2 MoBo fuses. If the "new one" is also a non-working/powers-up-only-borker, maybe I can knit together a kluge outta' the pair.
jt: still playin' with the OLD toys! =8-D