Ethics - how bad is it out there?

Um, how was astro_rob treated badly? Because he felt he had the right to demand that he be able to pick it up in person without having to pay the clearly stated shipping price?

Like picking at a scab...
The auction stated a flat $7.75 shipping rate. I won at $1. Basic math here... $1 + $7.75 = $8.75, what I was willing to pay. At this point, Kahuna, you're calling into question MY ethics; I was willing to pay what the initial eBay winning notification stated, that being the eight dollars and seventy five cents (thought I'd spell it out for you, you big lug...). Then, I receive an email referring to the $10 local pick up charge. Again, one more time (he cries into the wilderness), THAT was my issue! It was an undisclosed amount, not listed in shipping and handling, which the seller assumed I'd pay since I informed him that I'd swing on by and grab it, paying not via PayPal, but with moolah. Greenbacks. You know, money. Again, it was not disclosed until after I agreed to the $8.75, again something I was willing to pay.
You just don't seem to get it, and I'd sooner win an arguement with a cucumber then seem to drum the fact that the guy was going to tag on another $10, without mentioning anywhere in his auctions that he had this policy. Again, flat shipping rate of $7.75 was listed (in fact, elsewhere in the same auction he listed a flat $6.95 for S&H).
But do not, ever, EVER assume (which you did) that I wasn't willing to pay shipping. That is not the case. After all, I'm ordering the same unit from another merchant at an even greater rate to have it shipped.
If he was dishonest about any additional charges, at that point, I simply refuse to trust anything else. I'm funny that way, Oahu.

Why is business an inappropriate place to apply ethics?

Business is not unlike a relationship... in that it takes 2 to tango. You can't call it unethical if you buy something that you know was overpriced. You accepted the terms of the deal when you completed the transaction. You and only you are responsible for your actions.

Its not that there is no room for moral behavior in business. Here's an dumb example... If 1000 people were dying of thirst in a desert, and you had the only water... it would be ok (morally neutral) to sell the water (and at market value, and in that market, I'd imagine it'd be pretty high), but it would also be unethical for you to deny it to those who couldn't afford the market price. There is nothing unethical about selling, all things being equal, the same product to different parties at different prices, or even selling it high to one, but giving it away to another.

Now if I sell you something that I claim is working and you find that it is in fact broken, then I lied to you, and that is an ethical blight. Or if I knew you were an ax murder, and that if I sell you an ax, you are going to use it to murder someone... it would be unethical for me to sell it to you.

Pick up a book on ethics and get the whole story. There are all different sides in the theoretical, from utilitarianism to psychological egoism... but most modern moralists usually take a (neo)Kantian view, simply put, to treat others as though they were an ends in themselves rather than a means to an end. If something is in question, take it to the universal (i.e. this is ok for me to do if it is ok for everyone everywhere always to do). Most ethicists will conculde that there are fewer universals, and many many particulars. Each case must be considered on its own merits, and more often than not good people are forced into a bad situation and must choose what they believe is the least of all evils. Ironically enough, there is no black and white with right and wrong.

/edit/
ah, forgot something... the Law of Karma. Even if ethics doesn't apply to a business transaction, Karma always always will. Call it Newton's Third Law of Motion or the Golden Rule... or just say what goes around comes around... it never fails.

Ok, the big lug here needs some clarification again. He was going to charge you $1 + $7.75 + $10 = $18.75? Yes or no? If yes, then yes, that's definitely out of the question. His total to you for local pickup should be $11--no shipping charge. Isn't that the situation? He wasn't telling you $18.75 total, right? That wouldn't be unethical. That would be suable.

Just to inform you, there are many many businesses that do not like local pickup. They are setup only for postal business. That's all they want to do. If you want to deal with them personally, they find the need to charge. There is nowhere in the eBay rules that if you win an auction that you have the right to local pickup. That is something you should arrange with the seller before bidding. Their policy about local pickup has nothing to do with their stated shipping costs. You can make no correllation between them.

Let's keep the thread respectful, please.

That's right... $18.75. His shop is set up as a regular computer shop; you can walk on in (been by it a number of times, though not in it; caters mainly to PC's, and, well... I like Mac). When I won, I contacted him via eBay and informed him that I'd like to swing on by and grab it, and that's when the additional charge was added to the invoice. $11 I'd have paid. Heck, I'd have paid $18.75, IF it was listed in the auction while it was still on eBay, which it was not. It was a surprise charge at the end. It seems to me that it would have been more of an inconvience for him to ship. Yes, this is clearly a way for him to make a profit, one that, if he had been honest about, I'd have been okay with. He wasn't. Not why they canned this and his other auctions, though (that whole multiple listings thing, something I didn't even report).
Now that we're clear on that...
I need a beer...

Yes, that guy is scum. You have every right to be upset. Report him to eBay with full gusto. Sorry, I wasn't reading you close enough.

I'll hop back in for a bit to say that CM is right about the two-to-tango thing. Businesses that do things that harm other businesses that they depend on usually don't last long. That is the real example of a market economy. Business is as much about "working relationships" as it is about making money. One has a hard time making more money when other businesses won't deal with you.

bdub, that's interesting that you pulled my line in a previous post. I assume you pulled it because the implied word that I didn't finish has a sexual meaning in its usual use, and the rules are that there can be no sexual content here. The way I implied to use it did not have sexual content, but the very word itself does, so it seems like a close call, but I suppose it's wisest to err on the side of caution, so I give you no quarrel. I had been wondering what would have happened if I did use the entire word. Too bad we can't have a list of unusable words.

The word I implied is a clinical word, and hopefully not considered here a "bad" word, since saying it's a bad word would imply that the act referenced by it is shameful and that the word in itself is not proper for civil intercourse. The reality, of course, is it is perfectly fine for any forum without the sexual content restriction.

But I have no problem with you pulling it out of my post if you feel it necessary. You can do that anytime you feel the need in my posts. I much prefer it to pulling the thread entirely. I don't remember the process on how we become members on AF, but perhaps there could be stated in the agreement that has to first be accepted to become a member that all participants relinquish to the administrators the right to pull individual lines from posts when they determine that the lines break the rules. Too much is lost when the whole thread is pulled.

thanks

Well, I would think that you'd be within your rights to demand that, as you were paying a local pick-up fee, that your shipping fee be refunded because it wasn't being shipped. Did you try to negotiate at all?

bdub, that's interesting that you pulled my line in a previous post. I assume you pulled it because the implied word that I didn't finish has a sexual meaning in its usual use, and the rules are that there can be no sexual content here. The way I implied to use it did not have sexual content, but the very word itself does, so it seems like a close call, but I suppose it's wisest to err on the side of caution, so I give you no quarrel. I had been wondering what would have happened if I did use the entire word. Too bad we can't have a list of unusable words.

Actually I pulled it specifically because you cut the word off and made a quick joke regarding the thread being pulled. I've certainly got no problem with clinical terms when used within context and that abide by the AUP. I do have problems with it being a snide comment meant to draw attention to the use of the term.

To be blunt, a comment about "Ah, well now the thread'll get pulled" is more likely to help it along to getting removed than if you'd simply said the phrase and continued with your post.

-BDub

I've already ordered another unit from a company specializing strictly in Mac (so there!). Seriously, though, the seller still has dozens of auctions on the 'Bay. They initially pulled all the ones that were associated with the RAM (multiples), including the one I won, so I don't have to honor the agreement at this time.
The thing is, his shop is pretty small, yet he's selling fairly large items, and dozens of them at that. Not going to check, but does eBay allow drop-shipped items to be sold?
I might deal with him again in the future, but before I bid on anything again from him, I plan on contacting him. He does get some interesting stuff from time to time, and I'd hate to miss out on something cool. Also, while I'm big into this whole honor thing, wherever possible, I try to use local merchants. Community thingy. My only concern is that while he has plenty of good feedback, the negative feedback he gets are all contact related in one form or another. Which brings us back to the whole contact issue...