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Oh your just a kid? Sorry I assumed you were an adult. NO sense at all continuing any dialogue with you. Wish I would have known sooner.. But it makes sense now looking back.
Seriously. We were just getting back to helpful advice here :/
Seriously? You are now calling people who disagree with your admittedly terrible idea of blanket replacing ram retarded? What the hell is wrong with you? I don't care how much you disagree, that is just plain uncalled for.
The ram tests good when the aux card is out. The OP still hasn't even confirmed it's MT ram, yet you focus on that. Even if it was MT ram and it was bad, it would have shown bad when it was tested with the aux card out. The symptoms only occur when an 80 col or extended 80 col card are inserted. In addition, all aux cards work fine in another IIe, eliminating any issue with the ram on those cards.
Can we stop the "replace (or not) the MT RAM". While I too think it is bad advice to randomly replace components without proper testing, there is already ample comment in this thread for posterity to make a reasonable determination. The reason I love AppleFritter is because here, we are usually focused on simply solving problems.
Since you have tested and/or replaced the appropriate components, the problem seems to be at the board level. I would start checking the traces from the slot next. Tedious but that is the next logical step. Moving the RAM to sockets might be up next, maybe not a bad thing overall, but I am doubtful it will actually help and is likely to introduce new problems to be solved.
The RAM on the motherboard is in fact MT ram. Since the processor is socketed I replaced that. Now the system goes into 80 columns in PR#3 as well as going into 80 columns when I run diagnostic iie 2.1. however diagnostic 2.1 also tells me there is no memory card found when I select system status. The onboard test with the auxiliary memory card in still shows ram errors all with a “*” . *RAM 00111001 for example. Doesn’t the * designate the ram on the auxiliary card not the motherboard? I’m just asking. But everytime I do an onboard test the *RAM error shows differently, never the same. And the card tests fine on another motherboard. Someone mentioned capacitors and the thought of that crossed my mind. Replacing caps isn’t a big deal. I can buzz them off with the Hakko gun easily. Each IC seems to have a “104” axial at it. I have a component tester and could test each after removing. I am limited on my testing equipment and unfortunately have to go about this kind of on the primitive level.
I appreciate everyone’s input and thoughts trying to help me with this issue. I respect everyone’s personal opinions on how they do things and appreciate you sharing them but please refrain from attacking each other. We’re a very small group and we need to stick together.
If there’s any more information I can provide I’ll be glad to.
thanks again
Yep, I knew it! This is why I asked you about the asterix in the previous page. Now you can disregard all of the advice having to do with the memory chips on the motherboard.
Why is it telling me there are errors on the card with the ram when the card tests fine on another motherboard? And why does it show different errors every time I test?
Because one of the address lines (RA0-RA7) or one of the control lines (RW, RW80, EN80, PRAS, etc) does not have proper connection to your expansion card. One broken trace is enough (somewhere on the mainboard) - it would affect all RAMs and all data bits (so the test result is random - but always correctly indicate the expansion RAM).
Most signals are shared between the expansion RAM and the onboard RAM (data & address lines etc). You now know that all these (shared) signals are generated properly - otherwise you'd see errors with the onboard RAM. But the onboard RAM always tests completely fine. That's why a connection issue is most likely.
There is only a few signals which are specifically generated for the expansion RAM (EN80, RW80). But these originate from the MMU or IOU - which you already swapped with known good ones. So these signals are also generated properly (but might still have a broken trace, so they don't show up at the expansion RAM connector).
There is a few more signals on the expansiom RAM connector (like VID0-VID7). These do not matter for the RAM check (they would only cause issues with video output).
So, take your multimeter, have a look at the Apple II mainboard schematics, and then test each connection (resistance) one by one from the expansion RAM connector to its origin (at the MMU, IOU etc). And don't forget to test the ground and +5V pin. Even better: plug the known good expansion RAM card and test each connection from a location on the expansion card to its origin on the mainboard (so you can even exclude mechanical connection issues due to bent/weak/dirty contacts).
What MacFly suggests seems like a reasonable step forward.
A possible cheat/shortcut first is to just check the slot connector first. See if you get continuity through for each pin from its source to the top side of the connector where the card goes in. If the slot connector itself is bad this should find it.
Also you might try reflowing any suspect solder joints for parts that might affect AUX memory access.
And you can use a similar process to what I suggest for the slot connector above to check the sockets on chips that might affect it. Probably not the MMU if you've recently socketed it, but any other chips that you'd suspect. Even if the chip is good, if the socket is bad, it will cause problems, obviously.
I think it would be an extremely important fact to note if any rework was done to this board.
You mentioned you had talked to the person you bought it from. Did they say they replaced any chips at all?
That would be crucial information to pass along.
Otherwise the assumption would be made that the board has never been worked on since manfacturing until you received it.
Was any work done to the board before you got it?
The person I got the board from said the IOU socket was replaced because for some reason the IC was sea sawing out of the factory socket. For whatever reason. I think I can still contact him and ask him if the board was working before or after the socket was replaced. I checked the traces with a meter and I didn’t see anything irregular. Tonight I will check on the schematics and check the slots to their destination terminals. and recheck the work that has been done. (The LS ICs I socketed as well). Replacing the processor strangely let the machine go into 80 columns though. Perhaps that may have been another problem all in its own I didn’t even know about.
Thanks again all
Ill try and be more timely with updates.
If there was a problem with one socket, chances are another may also be bad... and more than one bad socket? Yeah, it is probably worth a careful look at the rest.
I was able to get in touch with the boards previous owner and he said this issue was present before he replaced the socket. This is an 84 board remember very little is socketed. The ROMs are socketed but thebsustem wouldn’t boot if there was an issue there. While I’m checking the traces I’m going to make sure the legs on the slot are physically making contact with the card itself.
Verault and insanitor, your behavior is not welcome here. There are many other ways you could have expressed your opinions without resorting to personal attacks. I suggest you read the Acceptable Use Policy. This is your only warning.
What are you talking about? I am the one who was verbally attacked by that idiot! have you not read the postings? How dare you lump me in with all the horrible things he said?
You are both at fault. At any point you could have dismissed his remarks and moved on, but instead you chose to escalate the situation. Calling him an "idiot" again just now indicates that you either do not understand, or do not care about, the acceptable use policy you agreed to when signing up for an account here. It would serve you well to temper your attitude lest you find that said account becomes disabled.
Nothing I said crossed any lines so far...
But I will say this. If you are a moderator on this board and you have your head that far up your ass that you cant see the writing on the wall, then allow me to say something you clearly need to hear.. Go forth and fornicate yourself you clueless fool with your beligerant threats.
Who allowed you to be a moderator if you arent even capable of doing the job?
Insanitor is clearly just an asshole cut and dry.. but Dr. webster.. your a silly little bitch. Enjoy your little pond.
Hey now... can't we all just get along?
Sadly I think this thread was doomed from the start.
Verault, you'll find that your account has been disabled for one month, and this thread has been locked. (insanitor has indicated that they no longer wish to participate here and requested that their account be disabled, which it has.)
EDIT: After some internal discussion, it seems prudent to re-open this thread to comments as the original question may still warrant further (civil) conversation.
Thanks Dr. Webster.
I am very curious how this issue is coming along with the original poster.
mochatea396, how are you coming along with this?
Yeah, I am wondering whether any of the suggestions had any success or even revealed anything new?
Sorry for the delay. Been involved with several projects. I decided to test the ROMS after I put the board aside for a few days since the diagnostic software runs fine. The ROMs all passed. It told me it was an enhanced iie with an extended 80 column card present. With 64k of auxiliary memory. Strange. All of a sudden it’s fully recognizing it now. So I tried the onboard test again and it passed. I ran AppleWorks and loaded fine. Totally unexplainable. Today however I tried the board and now it’s back to failing the onboard again. Giving false RAM errors. It still goes into 80 columns but the RAM errors have returned.
The onboard test isn't great. Try something like XPS Diagnostics or the Apple Dealer Diagnostics for //e. Those have a much more accurate RAM test.
By "onboard" do you mean the RAM on the card or the RAM on the motherboard? This term could be interpreted either way.
If it is on the card just like before, I am pretty sure at this point you are dealing with a bad contact or a bad solder joint somewhere on the motherboard. First try to see if flexing the motherboard makes it temporarily go away.
I have a 16K expansion card for one of my II+ machines that behaves similarly.
When it's cold - at or below say 18°C, the board does not work. The machine doesn't recognize it well, and it fails multiple RAM tests. I use Locksmith 6.0 to test RAM in my II+ as it is comntains one of the best tests out there.
Anyway, as the card warms up from being powered on, it starts to show fewer and fewer errors.
So if I run the Locksmith 6.0 RAM card test to test the upper 16K, it will show less errors each time I run it.
Finally when the card is fully warmed up it shows zero errors and works perfectly with all tests and with all software that uses it.
Even if it is stored at a high room temp like 25°C or above - easily ambient in the suimmertime, it will almost always work.
But cold? Nope.
I've tried everything I can think of to fix it, but nothing works. And it is a very difficult fault to trace as it runs away from you and disappears.
I finally just gave up and allow the machine to come to temperature for 5 minues or so and then reboot.
II wonder if you are experiencing something like that but in reverse...
That's definitely a crazy one. I had a MSFT language / 16k card in a II+ that behaved simialarly, it ended up being a bad 4116 and a bad 74LS367 [if memory serves]. But the issues were very much like you described.
Such temperature-dependent failures have been known for a long time; sometimes a result of poor contact between bond wires and silicon dies.
Localized mild heating with a hot-air unit, or cooling with freeze spray (or just alcohol) can help localizing this type of problem. There were tools made specifically for this such as the PACE HP-150, which is a ~50 W air heater with a nozzle that fits over a 16-pin DIP package.
The other way that temperature can relate to intermittent failures is between the package and the board, specifically in cold solder joints. By nudging each pin with a wooden stick during a test loop you may be able to make the failures disappear or reappear, which means you have found a cold joint. They are also visible on very close inspection, where there is a fine crack between the fillet and the lead or the pad. These joints need to be desoldered and resoldered.
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