THIS is Laughable!

I have seen a late model Apple II with a red label, that was not painted on the inside of the bottom tray, and had an RFI motherboard. I have also seen revision 1 motherboards, with a new date code sticker from Apple, put inside an Apple II plus. I have seen keyboards with a 1978 date code, also relabeled with a new date code sticker, and placed in a late model Apple II. Apple did not really care about revisions, they were more interested in using there inventory. Honestly, Speedy I value your opinion, but your wrong to say that an original Apple II can't have a revision 7 motherboard, I have seen plenty of examples. Your also wrong to say that Apple II revision 3 are definitely Apple II. There are Apple II plus with revision 3, and also the Bell and Howell. Apple still had the Apple II in there catalog until 1981 or something close to that. Anyway, making blanket statements suggesting fraud with limited information is callous.

Is it me, or did somebody take an actual ii+, put a ii badge on and is now trying to sell it as a ii for a higher price?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Apple-II-Computer-Not-IIe-or-Serial-A2S1-75-062-New-Badge-Integer-/222333864834?hash=item33c4218b82:g:daUAAOSw5cNYQjif

I would have expected a motherboard with a date code in 1981, but on the whole, it looks okay. Apple II computers did share basically all the motherboards of the II+, just with a small number produced after 1979. This is the long tail end of the Apple II.

[Edit: this same question comes up about twice a year. Apple company documents show that the II was in production at least into 1981. Over the years, I've been recording serials from ebay and a few other places. I have recorded 20 Apple II computers with a serial 61k or higher, of which 3 motherboards are dated late 1979, 2 in 1981, and 2 in 1982. The others are all motherboards from 1980.]

Hello to Apple7159 and akochera,

the date is not the only border between AppleII and AppleII+ !
Like mentioned ealier there is a second border of the board revision between
rev.4, Rev.7 and RFI board.
And your replies don't even touch that point !

If you like to continue on your path of argumentation:
Of course somebody might have first puchased a Apple II and then
after damage a technichian from Apple sweeped out the former Rev.4 mainboard
and replaced it probably by a mainboard Rev. 7 or RFI !
But then it's no more a Apple II .... it was "upgraded" to be in fact a II+ in a II case.
And then a while later again the guy lost the lid and replaced it by another lid.
That exchange does not "convert back" the Apple II+ to become again a II.

And a Apple II sold after 1980 only can claim to be a real Apple II ( not II+ ) if it still had
a mainboard inside with very low dated Rev.7 or rev.4 or earlier. And yes - of course Apple did
also sell after 1980 several old II ( not II+ ) from the remaining mainboards out of the storage
till that mainboards have all went out of the company or have been destroyed by Steve Jobs in one
of his "destructive moments".... ( this mentions that he usually destroyed old mainboard by himself
with hammer or other destructive tools like a chainsaw before he kicked them into the garbage container ).

speedyG

Ya Gotta Love It!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1978-Apple-II-Motherboard-Keyboard-Rana-Elite-One-Drive-Cards-Cables-Books-/401238777591?hash=item5d6bb1def7:g:PykAAOSwux5YRxoW

Steven :)

lol!

Hello to Apple7159 and akochera,

the date is not the only border between AppleII and AppleII+ !
Like mentioned ealier there is a second border of the board revision between
rev.4, Rev.7 and RFI board.
And your replies don't even touch that point !

I admit I don't understand your point. I don't know what you mean by borders for the date or motherboard.

The Apple II and II+ were built with whatever stock on hand. So why shouldn't a late Apple II have the same motherboard of a contemporary II+?

Why would Apple keep selling II's after the II+ came out? It doesn't make sense that they sold them after 1979.

I mean, really it's just a different ROM revision, why sell the old one? In most (all?) examples, they discontinued the old model as soon as the new model was sold. i.e. II+ to the IIe, IIe to //e, //e to Platinum. The old versions were discontinued immediately.

It's starting to sound like a new thread... should we move it over somewhere else? But yes, the II and II+ were indeed sold at the same time post Summer '79, and for a long time. [I should be clear that the II quickly lost popularity]

Hello akochera,

lets make it simple:

What's at your opinion the technical specification of the Apple II ?

and

What's at your opinion the technical specification of the Apple II+ ?

or if you prefer - list here your opinion of precise difference in specification
between:

...APPLE][....and.....APPLEII+
------------------I-----------------

Thanks SpeedyG

The ROMs.

Thanks SpeedyG

The ROMs.

And the badge too.

Pleeeeaaaase don't forget the label A2S1- :bigsmile:

So by your definitions a case of a AppleIIplus with a RFI Mainboard
will "switch back" to become a Apple II ( not plus ! ) if you only
extract the Applesoft ROMset and replace instead a Set of Integer ROM's
and a old Apple II ( not plus ) badge at the lid ??? fascinating opinion...

Please don't be disappointed if several members here won't agree to that....
Sorry but RFI Mainboard and Apple II ( not plus ) don't fit to at least my definition of the
Apple II ( not plus ) and just replacing the ROMset also does not perform a "magical switchback"...
it just results to a "Apple-Frankenstein"..... at least in my opinion....
same is valid to a change of the case or case-parts ( including label ) ...

Several members here have been working at Apple in former days...
would be interesting to get opinions or definitions from that members to find out
the clear limits in the foggy mist...

At least in my understanding at the beginning the Applesoft ROMs had a simple F8 ROM
without Autostart....
and to my undestanding the Switch from Apple II to Apple II+ was the release
of the Applesoft ROMset WITH Autostart ROM at the rev.7 mainboard in a period
of the late year 1979 till beginning of year 1980 ( - but maybe I'm just a crazy nerd ) LOL.

According to:
http://www.theappletimeline.com/
the Apple II ( not plus ) was even discontinued after June 1979.
But i would not go that strictly, because in small stores related to Apple the sale of the
Apple ( not Plus ) was continued for several months......

speedyG

Apple thought they were selling both the Apple II and II Plus in 1980.

I took technical to mean the internal workings, but of course an Apple II would properly be branded w badge and serial.

In the spirit of keeping simple, allow me to return a question. Do you believe Apple company offered Apple II computers in 1981? The answer to this will, I think, settle all.

yep... but officially only IIplus !
and that modell was equipped with
rev.7 mainboard and Applesoft ROMset with Autostart ROM ( F8 ) !

And back to the offer:
datecode on mainboard is 8045 = 45th week of 1980...
That's Nov. 1980 so that model got at least 2 or 3 weeks later in the shop and was
probably sold in Xmas 1980 close to border of 1981.....
and that's for sure allready Apple IIplus age !

welcome back to "the armenian carpet dealer"....

and back to the postings #2251 and #2252....
both talking about "Apple-Frankensteins" ??? - just also to clear stuff for others in this thread....

Speedy, Apple sold late model revision 7 Apple II's with integer ROM's. Why would that qualify as Apple Frankenstein? There is nothing modified about it. I must be missing something :~ Are you also claiming that early Apple II Plus's with revision 3 motherboards are also Apple Frankenstein, as you call it?

Please permit me to answer the Apple Frankenstein question later, because our agreement on this hinges on the first question. You say that Apple did not officially offer the Apple II after the II+ [edit: approx summer 79]. I say Apple did indeed do so. We have achieved simplicity. All that remains is evidence. Have I misrepresented you?

I would call a rev.3 II(plus) a Frankenstin and i doubt it was sold that way after 79 !
In fact what happened with such a computer is that the rev.7 mainboard got damaged -
and a guy at the repair service swapped out the rev.7 and instead swapped in a rev.3
or whatever was deposited at the shelf.
That was common behaviour in Apple shops.

And that's exactly the reason that i turn back the question to the posting about the technical specs.

1979 it is then! Present your evidence, I will present mine. Give me a day or two, I am away from home.

I'm still waiting for former employees and now members here to add
comments.
Taking pictures of a Apple II case with a rev.3 or rev.4 mainboard is no evidence -
because there is no proof that that computer did not enter rapair procedure at Apple
and the board was not swapped later after purchase.....

My father purchased a new Apple II for me in 1980. I don't have it with me at the moment, but the serial number is in the 30,000s and the motherboard date code is something like 8037. It came with Integer ROMs. It was never repaired and has been in my possession the entire time. So, I'm pretty confident that the original II was still shipping in 1980, well after the II+ had been introduced.

Hello billw,

That's exactly the reason for my statement in last paragraph of posting #2264....
Just to clarify: There is a difference between Apple Inc. and the related shops...
for example in shopping malls at electronic shops that sales continued several months
to get rid of the computers in the storage....

sincerely
speedyG

That's a bit older than my newest II. I have one with serial A2S1-75607. Mine also has the FCC waiver sticker.

I thought early rev 0 ones had the "ventless" case?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/262712913064

I'm just curious, is there any difference between the Apple II Plus case and Apple II (with vents) case ?

SpeedyG,

here in the U.S., Apple IIs were generally sold by authorized dealers to consumers. I think school districts and large businesses may have purchased directly from Apple, but I am not sure. Either way, I view them as official Apple's. They had the serials. Apple company sanctioned it.

I have asserted that Apple IIs continued production after 1979, and now present my evidence.

1. I earlier noted that I have been recording Apple II computers appearing on Ebay and elsewhere. I have close to 100 logged. Of those, 20 are in the serial range 61k or higher, very late for an Apple II. Among those, the majority have motherboards in 1980, two in 1981, two in 1982, and 2 in late 1979. The absence of earlier motherboards leads me to believe late Apple IIs had motherboards from the Apple II+ era. To summarize: late serials, late motherboards, generally from 1980 or later. Consistently.

2. I am not the only enthusiast to conduct this exercise. Please see the following link, in which another researcher looks at motherboards, and which Apple IIs were produced with them. The findings are the same. He collected his information before I began collecting mine, so it is from another set of observations altogether.

http://www.techtalkz.com/apple/187741-apple-ii-iiplus-production-dates.html

3. The following link is a price list from the Apple company in March, 1981. You will observe the Apple II on that list.

https://computerarchive.org/files/comp/advertisments/not%20sorted/applearchive-pat-af7490692e58af17be5cd26c2560f1c4.pdf

You simply cannot get any more official than that.

I am still on travel, I may not be able to respond quickly to these posts. But I hope I have presented myself clearly. I think it is enough. But SpeedyG has not yet presented his own evidence, so I will stay tuned.

If you look through old magazines such as Creative Computing and Byte from 1981 (Both of which are digitized on archive.org), you'll see ads from mail order houses selling Apple II and Apple II+'s for the same price through the April of 1981 issues. By June, the ads from these companies were no longer listing the II (one had "CALL" for the Apple II in the May issue, with the II absent entirely in June). It seems unlikely that these places sat on old inventory for over a year, and since they consistently listed the II up to that time (with no price discount vs. the II+), it's also unlikely they simply bought up a lot of old inventory and were "blowing it out" in early 1981.

This leads me to wonder if like a lot of companies after they stopped advertising an item and had taken it off their price list if Apple would supply one on special order? Could there be a few RFI Apple IIs out there?

Yes, there are some RFI Apple II's. I had one. Yes, the A2S1- Red label was attached to the RFI bottom plate, which was not painted on the inside, and had the extra holes at the top for the RFI board, and spacer.

This one has "signs of wear"... Riiiight.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-2e-Computer-A252069-Motherboard-power-supply-keyboard-/252681986685?hash=item3ad505227d:g:w7UAAOSwnHZYUX8Q

This one has "signs of wear"... Riiiight.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-2e-Computer-A252069-Motherboard-power-supply-keyboard-/252681986685?hash=item3ad505227d:g:w7UAAOSwnHZYUX8Q

It looks like it was thrown from a cessna and landed onto a concrete slab!

This one has "signs of wear"... Riiiight.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-2e-Computer-A252069-Motherboard-power-supply-keyboard-/252681986685?hash=item3ad505227d:g:w7UAAOSwnHZYUX8Q

It looks like it was thrown from a cessna and landed onto a concrete slab!

The Auction mentions, FedEx Casualty.... Also, they are only selling the Tested Motherboard, the Keyboard and Power Supply... I would request the Pan be sent too...

MarkO

My first thought was that it was pulled out of the chipper at the last minute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDGnb4CARHE

Yeah the ram board got bought by one of the guys on the Fb Apple // group, nice card. That other one well not so much

http://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-II-UNIDISK-3-5-OWNERS-MANUAL-030-1151-B-WITH-FLOPPY-DISC-NEW-IN-BAG-/222357896010?hash=item33c5903b4a:g:EDoAAOSwEzxYYXVZ

Read the description.

Maybe he has feeling of longing, also known as a Freudian slip?

Tell me how ebay, I would like to know how....

Tell me how ebay, I would like to know how....

I would really like to know how to do that with the current people who claim to manufacture new products for Apple ii's.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-II-COMPUTER-JOBS-WOZ-WOZNIAK-HISTORY-COMPUTER-ERA-ORIGINAL-/272524727410?hash=item3f73bd5472:g:glIAAOSw44BYfaW3

I messaged the seller. From what information he provided, the computer is a late model, red label, revision 7, Apple II. Why he chose a revision 0 photo from the internet to represent his computer is beyond me.

Steven I agree with you. I think your advice must have worked. He finally posted some photos. I think he is a member. He messaged me and said the computer he is selling is "lower." I think that is a reference to what I posted previously here. This is the details he gave me regarding his last listing a2s1-71414 board number 8037 power supply a2m001-69849. This listing says its the same computer as the last, but obviously its not considering what he told me previously. Anyway, I'm off to use a stock Apple 1 photo to sell an Apple II plus. ha ha.

This seller has been putting some interesting vintage equipment (A couple of Altairs and an IMSAI) up over last year or so. All of their auctions I've paid any attention to seem to follow the same basic pattern:

• Item is posted with a single (usually admitted) stock photo, with promises of photos of the actual item forthcoming. These usually show up a few days later.
  
• There is intense bidding activity starting almost immediately after the auction is posted, but before any any photos of the actual item are posted.
  
• When the auction ends, the item seems to go for less than one would expect.
  

Also, I'm about %95 certain both the seller and the merchandise are in fact located in Italy and not Torrance, CA. (Based on the auction of a vintage Olivetti calculating from an Italian seller that ended and then a few days later showed up listed by this seller for the same price).

I think you are correct. I requested to see the item personally (I live close to Torrance) and the seller said that this would be impossible...
Also, his reply email had a "from" header in Italian...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/272524727410?vectorid=229466&lgeo=1&item=272524727410&rmvSB=true

I'm confused. There is a beautiful revision 3, fully restored on eBay, and this one is already bid to this point? I remember less then a month ago, one with similar serial but complete, had to do a buy it now because no one bid on the auction for $600.