Can original apple IIe disks be transfered to a PC?

http://adtpro.sourceforge.net

You can either do it through ADTpro (serial port, as Ethernet is rather obscure on Apple II) or if you can find a machine with ISA bus and a Central Point Copy II PC Option card...
Decades ago I remember marveling that it actually worked (read a ProDOS disk with a 386 and 1.2MB floppy drive.)

You mean there's actually Apple ][ e people out there?

There are. Rather a lot, really. Applefritter is one of many places on the interwebz that types like us hang out.

My gosh -- its a real honor to meet you!!!!!!!

It's nice to talk to someone new, to bring someone else into the fold.

I will connect the apple iie drive to an adapter.
The adapter connects with a cable cord to a desktop pc IDE slot.
At this point, if the apple iie drive shows up on the my computer list of HD's, then I will insert an original the apple iie disk into the drive.
And copy the contents to the desktop

Stop right there. That will not work. Only an Apple II can read an Apple II disk. The way ADTPro works is it connects your Apple II to a PC or Mac with a serial, audio, or ethernet cord. It uses the Apple II hardware to read the disk and send it to the modern machine (or vice versa). At no point is the Apple II drive itself directly connected to anything but the Apple II. Take a closer look at the ADTPro website. Maybe watching one of the bootstrapping videos would help you understand better how it all hangs together.

Then there is the old fashioned way. By modem through a terminal program. All apple iie disk encoded files such as dsk or shk or ddd transferred to a PC should be saved with a *.txt extension on the PC.

The only hardware that I have left?:

>>An original Apple ][ e floppy drive attached to a serial IDE cord that will fit into the motherboard of a PC.

I think that is not in fact what you have. You may have a Disk II drive connected to a Disk II interface card that would plug into an Apple II, not a PC.

>>100 Apple ][ e floppy disks.

So now, David, in viewing the facts, the limited hardware, and the situation, the question still remains:
Is it possible to transfer Apple ][ e floppy disks with an original Apple ][ e floppy drive attached to a serial IDE cord attached to a PC, to a PC?

The answer is "no." You will need to buy either another Apple II computer (with either a Super Serial card, or one built-in like a IIc or IIgs) or avail yourself of services of someone who already has one.

Another option is the FC5025 device: http://www.deviceside.com/fc5025.html
If you buy that and a 1.2MB PC floppy disk drive (and a power source), you can use it to read your Apple disks from a PC.

By the way, do you happen to know Oliver schmidt?

Sure I do. Electronically, anyway. He's quite famous. No relation that I'm aware of, though. 'Schmidt' is just 'Smith' in German.

insanitor,
Hello, nice to meet you!

insanitor

By modem through a terminal program

By over the modem -- you are talking about if you use 2 PC's and "bridge" them over the internet with an ethernet cord?
And by terminal program, you are referring to? (What is the name of this program)?

insanitor

All apple iie disk encoded files such as dsk or shk or ddd transferred to a PC should be saved with a *.txt extension on the PC.

When you say this, you are saying, given the hardware configuration that I planned to use, that a "drag and drop" method to the desktop would work; so long as afterwords you then change the file extension to .txt?

Captain Kirk[/quote]

I am not talking about an Ethernet cord. I am talking about old style transfers like those that were done before most people even knew what the heck Ethernet was. At that time, people used BBS and terminal program software to bridge the gap between most computer platforms whose disk formats were not compatible with each other.

There used to be a problem under older versions of IBM operating systems that would create problems with any compressed apple II format when saved onto a PC. To fix this problem, people saved the file extension as *.txt. It was not readable by the PC but it was transferable to any other PC connected to the original PC which the file was copied into.

Software examples are:

Proterm on the Apple II and Wildcat! for the PC, although BBS software was not required, people sometimes used a program called Telix for the PC. It was really crazy at that time because if you downloaded something, you didn't necessarily know what computer it was for or what operating system it was for. It could have been for Amiga, IBM, Whatever.

Guten Tag!

So your "friends" with oliver, and you talk to him?

Sure, we collaborate on projects from time to time.

Since I am running a newer OS on a Pentium, then using Telix is not necessary?
And this process entails connecting the apple ii e and a PC together or maybe an apple ii e drive (+ apple floppy disk 5.2") to a PC? ["oldschool method"] :~

Captain Kirk

I remember there being a version of Telix that ran under windows stored on two 1.44MB floppy disks. It might work under Windows XP. But even if it doesn't, on a PC, there are many terminal programs available for free such as Teraterm.

To transfer the info you need an interface to transfer the files such as rs-232 used by modems. In the old days we connected modems to our computers and the modems to phone lines and used programs which utilized the modems to transfer information between computers whose disks were not compatible with each other. In this way you can store an apple ii file on a disk of any other platform of that time such as an Amiga or a PC.

Although I would have to say that an attempt was made to bridge the two platforms between apple ii and PC compatibles during that time and it was called the "Pc Transporter" made by a company called "Applied Engineering". The difficulty with this solution considering your needs is that you do not need to transfer the data anywhere since a complete setup like that will read disks made by both platforms. AE sold special disk drives in order to do this. That hardware now comes at a premium. On Ebay, even if you find a complete setup, it will go for hundreds of dollars.

Please don't ask me any questions about the PC Transporter, I hardly know anything about it.

What I do personally to transfer data between these platforms is to first, recognize what I am transferring. Is it a set of floppies or is it a set of large files? If it is a small few floppies then ADTPro is a good choice. If it is a large set of files then I simply would use my Apple ii SCSI card and copy the files, to one of my external SCSI card drives, then afterwards, disconnect the hard drive and hook it up to my PC and use a program like Ciderpress to copy the files onto my PC. Remember, an interface needs to be used. I use SCSI, RS-232 and Ethernet.

The last method available to me is over Ethernet. In the rare scenario that I would be transferring a large file and/or batches of files, and if I would be trying to have resume capability, I would use my Uthernet card on my Apple iigs. With GS/OS 6.0.1 and an FTP client program, and an FTP server on a PC on my LAN, I would transfer the file that way. Uthernet cards are hard to come by and they are expensive also if you get them on ebay. The last batch of those sold more than 1 year ago. When they show up on ebay, they go for around $200 for just one.

ADTPro also works with Uthernet cards. But I have noticed that using Serial is faster for me. The new version of ADTPro can read hard drives from PC's over a LAN I hear, but I have not tried it.

This link has more options listed for you:

http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/apple2/faq/07-007-Can-I-read-Apple-II-diskettes-on-my-PC.html#.UbZua53D-70

insanitor,
Hi!

The method that I found -- IF it works -- puts the files into a .po format.
The Applewin program that I have can't run .po, .shk, .dsz, or .2mg file extension files, so I can't use it.

In your method that you mentioned, do you need to have an apple ][ e or Apple iigs computer?

Captain Kirk

You can convert image file formats with Ciderpress. You can go into the Applewin options to use the *.po file however you wish.

The method that I found -- IF it works -- puts the files into a .po format.

I think it would be helpful if you back up here and tell us exactly what you are trying to do... and what your ultimate goal is. I *think* you want to take a .shk, or some other kind of disk or compression format, and make it into a form that an emulator can use? Is that right? I so, it might be helpful if you point out what file you have hold of, and we can go through a step-by-step process to get you there. You will stumble into many potholes in the road if you are just starting out. For example...

• Most software is available in forms other than, say, .shk - depends on where you look
  
• Once you turn a .shk into a .po it may be of a different size than an emulator expects, unless you set it up as a hard drive (GSport will mount it automatically in the drive type/size as required... but AppleWin will not)
  
• Even if you convert a .shk to a .po, it won't be bootable, which may cause you trouble if you are expecting it to "just work"
  

All shk files converted to po files are not bootble? I thought it depends on whether the shk file is a prodos disk.

A .shk file is like a zip file. It's just a wrapper for a bunch of other files. A bootable disk has a specific hunk of code in the first sector or two. The two are unrelated to each other... a .shk has no way to say that something needs to go in a particular sector. It's just an archive of individual files.

Now, an SDK is a whole disk image that has been shrunk with shrinkit. That _could_ be bootable, once unshrunk. (Not to be confused with DSK... a non-specific name for many types of disk images. Are we having fun yet?) That's why I'd like the good Captain to say exactly what he wants, and then we can help with that exact scenario. No need to go into every possible eventuality, of which there are very many...

Strange! I seem to remember that back in the day, there were only shk files or ddd files. Shrinkit files or Disk Disintegrator Deluxe files. Are you saying that DDD files are the only ones I remember that can carry boot data?

1. I have a story written on a file of the Appleworks program.
Location: 5.2" Apple ][ e floppy disk

2. I want to transfer this story/Apple ][ e disk to my PC

Ok. And I think we've established that you don't have a real Apple II? You need to change that somehow. I guess we're back to that. There's no PC that will read your disk. You need a real Apple II and a serial connection, or a volunteer to help who has one.

insanitor,
hOW'S yOUR dAY?

I could not find ANY way to get into the "options" that you say is available in Applewin.
Nor did I find any place that even showed that options are even available!!

But, what I do know, from trial and error, is that .po files will not run on Applewin, because I have tried.
So unless you know how to get into the "options", this cannot be done.
There is also something that you should consider as 'logical' though: the .po file is a 800 kb file size, and the emulator is only able to read 140 kb size files!

However, what I did find was some readme information saying that Applewin is able to create disk images, but only if the disk is formated by Applewin.

If I do not have an Apple ][ e computer, but I have an Apple ][ e floppy drive (and a 5.2" floppy disk inside it) attached with an IDE cable plugging into my PC motherboard IDE #1 slot, can this "oldschool method" with the Ciderpress program be used (if my PC is running a W95 OS [Note: I am currently running XP])?

Captain Kirk

Assuming that you are running the latest version of applewin, which should be version 1.23: To get into the options:

1). Click on the icon showing the joystick and the speaker.

2). You should now be seeing the applewin configuration.

3). Click on the disk tab.

4). Click on the "Select HDD 1" button and then select your *.po file.

Now it should be able to boot your *.po file. You should now at this point get applewin to point to your Ciderpress directory. That might give you more compatibility with disk images.

When you were asking what I was trying to do, did you mean this other method that I had found to convert the file to a .po format?

I'm not sure now. You seem to be meandering all over the place, which is OK - as long as you are making forward progress.

When you were asking what I was trying to do, did you mean this other method that I had found to convert the file to a .po format?

I'm not sure now. You seem to be meandering all over the place, which is OK - as long as you are making forward progress.

It seems that he doesn't even have an apple iie, so I would say that until he gets one, he can't transfer anything unless he uses those programs I outlined earlier.

He's got a disk ii 5.25 drive I am assuming, so to work with that drive, he now he needs a disk ii controller card, apple iie, and some other stuff in the iie.

Captain Kirk: Ciderpress is a separate program:

http://ciderpress.sourceforge.net

I guess a woman would say that one of us should get the Captain to mail us his disk and we'll do the transfer, since it seems that he's lacking the necessary hardware.

David,
How's your day going?

Just getting started.

A)
Do you know anything about the features or options available in Applewin?
(Ciderpress is one of them. There are others...)

Sure, there's tons and tons of them. Applewin has grown quite a lot over the years. You can learn a lot by reading the help file, which is in fact very helpful. Some of the features I use a lot are the ability to mount arbitrarily sized disk images in slot 7, the Uthernet Ethernet emulation, and serial-over-IP support.

Method #2:
5. DISK2FDI reads the Apple floppy and creates a disk image (.do) on the PC.

I've heard of this program, but have not used it... you may wish to explore more at http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi/.

insanitor,
Thanks for your response.

I appreciate your clarification!!!
I was getting all excited about your "oldschool method" and hoping that it could solve my problem, which would be nice...

"oldschool method"
Requirements:
Apple ][ e computer and Ciderpress

Thanks for the link!

1) So if I can't find any way to do it, then you suggest sending the floppy to you or someone else?

2) Do you have Applewin? :~

3) Can YOU run .po (or any other files for that matter, or .do files) on Applewin?

4) If I install Ciderpress on my PC, will it enhance the abilities of Applewin?

5) With only Ciderpress, Applewin, and my PC, what capabilites do I have available to me?
Do you know anything about the features of these programs and what they can do?

P.S. I was not able to run the .po file under options and after the instructions that you left. There was only an error message?

Captain Kirk

1). If you decide to send it to someone else, make sure you put on the envelope a warning for the postal service that the letter contains magnetic media and cannot be exposed to magnetic fields. The postal service has been known to destroy 5.25 disks in this way. Also, make sure you put enough cardboard into the envelope so that the floppy disk will not be bent enough to cause physical damage.

2). Even if I do not have applewin, I can easily download it. I can run po files depending on how I make them. Those are prodos order files and need to be formatted for prodos and have prodos files inside. I can then run them using applewin.

3). Ciderpress has interesting features, like reading hfs formatted hard drives and converting one image format into another. Applewin and ciderpress work well together. For example, I believe that ciderpress can create a blank hard drive image for use in applewin.

You can always use retrofloppy.com to do the conversion for you, that being if you don't want to deal with some unknown person on the internet and prefer to do a business transaction with a business:

http://retrofloppy.com/

I realize this is not the answer to the original question. Some of the data disks on Apple ][, ][+, IIe, and later machines were not formatted in AppleDos or ProDOS, but formatted with the UCSD p-system. The p was for portability, as programs written in the p-system were compiled to a pseudocode, a p-code, and this p-code could be run on several chip architectures if you had the right interpreter. Once you compiled your program and it did not have any machine specific calls (like peeks and pokes) it would run on Apple, IBM, etc.

Apple Pascal was by far the biggest user of this system in the Apple World, and Apple Pascal sold thousands of copies when it was announced that all Computer Science Advanced Placement Exams (for College credit, given to HS students) would subsequently be written and administered in the Pascal language. Many colleges ramped up Pascal classes for the HS teachers getting students prepared for the AP exam in CS. This was around 1982 or 1983.

The UCSD system disks are a different format. If you data was a program or data written by Apple Pascal (or any of the less popular languages supported by the UCSD P-system) then you need to boot a computer into the p-system. I still have a set of original data disks containing the libraries of the USUS (UCSD System Users Society) in IBM format if someone needs these. I was quite active in USUS in the early 1980's.

Rich

insanitor,
Good day to you!

1. Thnks for the info. I didn't know they used magnetic feilds in the post office. That's good to know the next time I ship something!!!!!!!!
THAT'S SOME REAL DATA LOSS, HUH?

2. You run .po files on your Apple ][ e / iiGs?
So lets get this correct process right:
a) format the disk with prodos
b) copy the disk on the formatted prodos disk
c) the .po file will now THEORY run on Applewin (untested)?

insanitor

For example, I believe that ciderpress can create a blank hard drive image for use in applewin.

Is this a virtual drive?

If you are running any emulator, which Applewin is, then any hard disk image that it uses is considered to be a virtual drive.

Your old apple iie's not being able to run Prodos might have been because you were trying to run the latest version of Prodos but that version requires an enhanced apple iie. I deduce this since you use the ][ brackets to describe your iie instead of using slashes. (Apple //e) Enhanced apple iie's give you "//e" when they first turn on. The unenhanced ones give you "][e".

Prodos is the defacto OS for the apple iie if you used a hard drive. There was even a chip upgrade from practical peripherals' sider hard drives to format the entire drive for use with Prodos. The apple iie usually came with the "ProDOS users' disk". Perhaps you booted the disk and simply forgot about it since the iie did not come with any programs that were useful for Prodos that I remember. People usually used Dos 3.3 or some other OS.

To boot Prodos you would format the disk for prodos and copy two files to the disk. The Prodos file and the basic.system file. There were many different versions of Copy II Plus that used ProDOS. You probably ran Prodos and didn't even know it. Prodos has it's own way of booting the default program on the disk. I do not know how that works but I do know that a specific version of Copy ii Plus allowed you to select which program boots first. The system 3.0 disk also uses Prodos. If you ever exited a program and saw a directory tree afterwards, then that was a Prodos Disk.

What is the UCSD? What does it stand for?
And what did you do in the System Users Society?

The p-code system was developed at the University of California, San Diego, and was a very interesting programming step. In the infancy of microcomputers, only interpreted languages were available, due to severe memory constraints. Basic (several variants) programs were read into memory, and executed one numbered line at a time, with loops and goto statements. Each line of code was executed in order, from the original BASIC program. This was slow, but meant that computers could be used to learn programs, since they could run their own programs.

On the other hand, if you needed the speed or graphics from a video display game, you used a compiler (which ran on a much bigger machine) or wrote in machine language to produce faster, more complex programs. Assuming the memory of the microcomputer was large enough, the program could be read (from disk or cassette) into memory, and run.

Interpreting is kind of what you do in a foreign language restaurant. You tell the waiter you want eggs, and the waiter interprets the sentence, uses it, asks you if you want fried or scrambled, and you reply. Again your reply is translated into, perhaps a mark on the waiter's order pad. Another question, another interpretation, and another mark indicate "over-easy" or "well done". At the end of all these interpreted commands, the waiter has a foreign language order that he can give to the chef. In the compiled world, you sit down, and make an all inclusive list in the foreign language, and perhaps simply hand it to the chef.

Interpreted languages like BASIC were popular since they could be written on a micorcomputer and the memory was large enough to run one line at a time, and complete the task. Compiled languages ran much faster, but could not necessarily be developed on the machine, since the compiler looked at the entire program and made a version of machine language.

The UCSD P-code system offered a step inbetween the basic languages and the compiled languages, with a partial compilation to p-code. You could only run p-code if you had the p-code system for your particular architecture, but you could do this on an early Apple with a "language card" (one of the reasons the additional memory cards were called language cards, they allowed you to run languages beyond basic.)

In theory, p-code was portable. If you wrote a checkbook balancing program in Apple Pascal, and ran it through the p-code compiler, you supposedly got a p-code that could run on Apples, DEC, Z-80, x86, 6800 machines. Unfortunately, this p-code, while it would run, could not take into consideration the special features of each machine, so the code looked very simplistic on the screen, using no machine specific graphic routines. It also wrote to disks formatted in the p-system, etc. The UCSD system allowed many thousands of HS kids to learn Pascal without having to buy or use a machine big enough for a full Pascal compiler.

While the UCSD system supported several other languages in a very similar way, none was anywhere near as popular as Apple Pascal. If you want to read further, see: The UCSD Pascal System

If you have a disk ii drive, then you need a disk ii controller card. If you have an a9m0104, 0107 or 0108, then you need the 5.25 controller card with a db-19 connector. But you would already know all of this if you HAD READ THE MANUALS FOR THE APPLE IIE AND/OR THE II+...

Did you try google it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_II

insanitor,
Hi.

I dont have a disk ii controller card. I was wondering what it did -- its functions.
And HOW does it attach?
Is it attached externally?
The ONLY manual that I read was the manual with all the Apple ][ e BASIC command language...
That is the only one that I could get my hands on at the time that I owned the Apple ][ e!

Captain Kirk

If you have a disk ii drive, then you need a disk ii controller card. If you have an a9m0104, 0107 or 0108, then you need the 5.25 controller card with a db-19 connector. But you would already know all of this if you HAD READ THE MANUALS FOR THE APPLE IIE AND/OR THE II+...

insanitor,
Hi.

I dont have a disk ii controller card. I was wondering what it did -- its functions.
And HOW does it attach?
Is it attached externally?
The ONLY manual that I read was the manual with all the Apple ][ e BASIC command language...
That is the only one that I could get my hands on at the time that I owned the Apple ][ e!

Captain Kirk

If you have a disk ii drive, then you need a disk ii controller card. If you have an a9m0104, 0107 or 0108, then you need the 5.25 controller card with a db-19 connector. But you would already know all of this if you HAD READ THE MANUALS FOR THE APPLE IIE AND/OR THE II+...

But Kirk doesn't have any Apple II hardware. He has some floppy media and a PC. He wishes to move data from said floppy media to the PC. The question has been answered many ways, by many people. There's little else to add. To summarize:

• Re-acquire an Apple II. A IIc is a great choice because it has a floppy drive and a serial port built in. Use ADTPro to transfer the floppy media.
  
• Investigate DISK2FDI. It will require a 5-1/4" floppy drive attached to a PC (a rarity these days). Included in the "buy more PC hardware" camp are devices like the FC5025, also requiring the purchase of a PC 5-1/4" floppy drive.
  
• Entreat the community to do the transfer on his behalf.
  
• Investigate professional services for same.
  

If the OP wants to use pre-existing software from, say like a box full of common titles on floppies, - why not check on asimov and other resources to see if images have already been made? D/L them and away you go!

If this is unique personal data and 1-of-a-kind material, then the suggestions presented in the previous posting are all viable solutions.

When we used to ship important disks via mail back in the day we'd use those disk-shield folders from DiscWasher or Dyson or whatever. They were tri-fold and a dark maroon red with gold striping. Looked nice. They had a thin metal insert in them.

The point is to build a farady cage like structure and place the disk inside it. This directs the magnetic fields AROUND the disks. And I've tested this quite extensively via practical experience. I've shielded disks against those Magna-PODS that magnetically hold cameras to car doors. I've tested against Neodymium magnets too.

You can do this for free today with a thin piece of scrap ductwork from a construction site or dumpster. Trim it down to size. As long as it's magnetic and the disk is sandwiched in-between two pieces, it'll be protected against Mega-Tesla fields! These metal sheets or plates can be really really thin, too, like 1/64th or less.

If this is unique personal data and 1-of-a-kind material, then the suggestions presented in the previous posting are all viable solutions.

To review, this was OP's goal:

And now that I am done with the formalities, with much ado, here is what I want to do/GOAL: Wink

1. I have a story written on a file of the Appleworks program.
Location: 5.2" Apple ][ e floppy disk

2. I want to transfer this story/Apple ][ e disk to my PC

3. Using Applewin, I want to run this file (Appleworks program, with a story written on it)

4. Using Applewin, with this program loaded (Appleworks program, with a story written on it), I want to print this story on my printer

Since this is one-of-a-kind material - then the best solution is for Captain to acquire some hardware and learn how to use it. Not letting the disk out of sight. Practice making and transferring disks both ways back and forth via serial cable or whatever. Then when confidence and knowledge are gained, work on transferring the original one-of-a-kind disk.

The alternative is to ship the disk in a Faraday Cage to a member and have them do the transfer.

The Captain can just buy one of those small fireproof security boxes and mail it in that. As long as a magnet sticks to the box it will work and protect the disk against anything short of a Magnetar. A small price to pay for ensuring safe transit no doubt.

But Kirk doesn't have any Apple II hardware. He has some floppy media and a PC. He wishes to move data from said floppy media to the PC. The question has been answered many ways, by many people. There's little else to add. To summarize:

• Re-acquire an Apple II. A IIc is a great choice because it has a floppy drive and a serial port built in. Use ADTPro to transfer the floppy media.
  
• Investigate DISK2FDI. It will require a 5-1/4" floppy drive attached to a PC (a rarity these days). Included in the "buy more PC hardware" camp are devices like the FC5025, also requiring the purchase of a PC 5-1/4" floppy drive.
  
• Entreat the community to do the transfer on his behalf.
  
• Investigate professional services for same.
  

I thought that his continuing the same question over and over again was because he was expecting a different answer. Which is why I reposted what I had said before. It seems that he's looking for some shortcut that does not involve any of the suggestions we gave him, or that he does not want to see, or cannot understand what we're trying to tell him.

Speaking of an ingenious idea, I guess there isn't ANY for my situation, as far as the transferring what I got myself with my setup.

No. You need something you evidently don't have. We've explained your options in great detail above.

I did see something about the "DISK2FDI".
But apparently, it would seem that even for this idea, which would transfer the file into a .do file, I guess I still need an Apple ][ e.

No. To use DISK2FDI, you need a 5-1/4" disk connected to your PC, as explained above and on the DISK2FDI website (also pointed out above).