My Apple II with no serial number…

Well your friend is right. This is a "Frankenstein" machine and so are most on eBay these days like the one auction you linked to. If it was a II with all II parts it would have gone for much more on eBay especially if it was working.

Let me explain, I did a lot of research as part of my Rev 4 and Rev 0 restorations.

Your motherboard is clearly a II plus board with integer ROMs.

Your baseplate is from a II plus (either sticker removed well or it was a service replacement). All Apple II has the inside base plate painted (except under the supply) and depending on the rev the colors are different. Only the early II plus had this.

You don't shown a head on from the back shot of the keyboard to see if it is correct for a II or is it a later Plus keyboard.

There are also tell tale signs in the actual case mould itself too look for if you want as it either wore down or was remade with a slightly different one which can help date the case a little. And the splatter pattern on the case is consistent with a later II plus anyway.

There is more but I'd have to send you a PM if you want to check. I'm keeping some of my discoveries close to the chest so that I can quickly identify systems that have been "converted" when asked to authenticate them.

What I can tell you is someone did go though the attempt to make it appear to be a real II to an untrained eye.

Cheers,
Corey

One more thing to add. The paint on the II plus cases and base plates is pretty hard, you can scratch them, but I have taken stickers off with automotive adhesive and wax remover and you'd never know. So I think someone "built" yours and removed the II plus sticker.

BTW: that's a hint to anyone needing to remove stickers or that stupid foam residue from their RF modulator on their case without harming the finish.

Cheers,
Corey

The ebay link looks like one of many Apple IIs produced during the Apple II+ era. Maybe powersupply came from an earlier machine. The sticker makes it legit enough, I wouldn't call it a Frankenmachine necessarily, just a reflection of the period it was built. Also, the price may have been relatively low because Apple collectors refrained from bidding, in sympathy for the fellow who lost ownership of it (google TVRSALES and Apple II for the unfortunate story).

Transwarp's computer may be from a similar era? Or Frankenmachine built w/ II+ parts? Lack of sticker, hard to say. At a minimum, bidders might view this as a source of integer roms.

It has an RFI keyboard which is II plus only and the motherboard is a II plus RFI motherboard. My guess is it was a II which had a failed keyboard and failed motherboard and the ROMs were transplanted when the motherboard was replaced. That makes it a frankenstein machine. Revived from the dead using mis-matched parts from others. If it's only one part that was transplanted, then I wouldn't call it frankenstein, it's just a machine waiting for the correct part to be found. When the entire motherboard is swapped out with a II plus and the roms transplaneted, it is. Think about this; to make the machine "original", you'd need to find a keyboard and motherboard and then swap the roms back.

as the prices rise and as Vintage computing becomes more like vintage car collecting, the same distinctions will come to pass.

Yes a 1967 mustang fastback with mid-70's replacement 287 engine (with the original air cleaner installed on top) is still a fastback, but it's a frankenstein especially when the transmission and interior have been swapped. It has potential but isn't worth the same as a 1967 fastback with the original engine or a date correct engine.

Also think about this... when someone takes a fastback and removes the old badging then puts a 427 engine in and puts GT badging on it, it doesn't make it a 67 Mustang GT, it makes it a 287 fastback with a 427 engine.

Cheers,
Corey

Late Apple IIs overlapped production with II+s, and used the same parts, or so I have read elsewhere... and the serial number is very late for an Apple II indeed. When did the RFI first come out?

The II plus was released in June 1979. So yes there was overlap, any early II plus systems were basically II systems with different ROMs and badging. The II never contained II plus only components obviously. So to say it easier a II with plus parts never shipped that way, but a II plus with II parts was the norm in 1979 and part of 1980. In 1981 according to the Winston Gayler book (which should be pretty accurate) Apple went with the RFI boards.

That's good information, which I sincerely appreciate. But it leaves us with a puzzle: why does the date of production on the ebay motherboard linked above show year 80?

That's simple. The board date has nothing to do its ship date. They may have built boards at the end of 80 that were RFI, but didn't ship till early 81. Logistics weren't what they are now, you may have had to stock subcomponents for months before you actually released something.

Cheers,
Corey

Well, if I'm told RFI boards were produced in 1980, and Apple IIs were sold in 1980 (and into 81, or at least so listed by retailers), then I have to believe that a late model Apple II can indeed have a RFI motherboard, and anything else an Apple II+ had (aside from certain roms and stickers, of course). But just because I hold this opinion should not cause offense to anyone else around here. I'm just offering my viewpoint, based on what little I've learned, and with no personal gain, and in pursuit of simplicity in assumptions, that the ebay listing above is probably what it appears to be.

The second picture you posted you can see the edge of the inside of the baseplate. It doesn't appear to be the same color as the base (minus the splatter pattern). On the Apple II, they were still painting the inside base plate and on early II plus models. Later ones seem to have some sort of treatment not paint.

Also yes I am referring to the datanetics keyboard with the metal bar.

And finally RFI is a lot more than screws and some metal plate in the back. There was a different motherboard, baseplate coating, powersupply, multiple keyboard revisions and stuff like that.

I should also say I'm not trying to be argumentative. But you and others are expecting people to pay good money for these systems. They should know exactly what they are getting and with this new collect apple anything craze going on and all these "systems" coming out of the woodworks, the more information to the buyer the better.

Cheers,
Corey

I think they all have "nothing" or just less of a coating under the supply. But on a painted base plate. It's very very transitional and obvious.

Well it looks like this thread has taught us all something's...

I stand corrected.... From the light of your original pics it looked like the baseplate was unpainted. I clearly is, so the only question is the "rev-7" board. But I can say the baseplate is consistent. The top of the case must have also been a cross over from when they must have been preparing for the RFI as the finish is not consistent with the later Apple II I have seen, it appears closer to the switch in 81 to RFI.

We have to assume your machine was, according to your supplied link, more than serial number 65k

now the question is what else can we deduce from the investigation. Does your keyboard have a date on it? The bottom of the supply is it dated with a stamp or sticker???

The key now is documenting as much as you can as to the date correctness of the system to prove its a real II when you go to sell it without a serial number. This is really the problem. As your friend and I have been saying the first reaction will be that it appeares to be a Frankenstein machine because there were questions. You now have some documentation to answer some of those which will go a long way.

Too bad we couldn't get someone with a "rev-7" board who is the original owner to confirm their purchase date. This combined with other date codes around the machine would be a great confirmation of its originality..

Now back to your original question, will it effect the value missing the serial number sticker on this specific machine.... BIG TIME, except maybe this thread has helped that a little for our specific case (no pun intended). If this was clearly an earlier machine, which its not, and it checked off all the boxes, then the serial number sticker wouldn't hit it as hard unless it was a Rev0 then people want "documentation". I.e, a rev 2 with correct silver power supply, keyboard and case would clearly not matter as much since it must be what it says...

Cheers,
Corey

<< SNIP >>

You can see on this apple II plus what I’m talking about:

http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/apple2/h/pboard.jpg

Also notice the apple ii plus bottom tray has no paint on it at all, where as the mid-years when II's & II+'s were made simultaneously they had paint every where except under the power supply.

<< SNIP >>

One think about this Apple ][+ that caught my attention, the Bottom Tray extends up the back to the lid, like on an Apple ][e.. Obviously to help with the RF Shielding..

I had always perceived the Apple ][ line as an "inverse" Quantum Leap from the Apple ][/][+ to the Apple ][e. It very much appears that there was many small deliberate steps in the transition from the ][ & ][+ to the ][e, not just in capabilities, but also in usability and shield-ability.

One more thing, on image “1933” you can see the date 1979 and then a serial # right above it that says “820-0001-07.” If I’m not mistaken, the 07 at the end means it’s a rev 7 motherboard. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

That is what I would think..

I have an Apple ][ with a Rev 03 board, and an Apple ][+ with a Rev 01 Board, and they have Silk Screened on the PCB “820-0001-03” and “820-0001-01” respectively..