The Big Score! Mountain Expansion Chassis!

Would it have been a sticker? I've had older equipment serial/model number stickers go brittle and simply fall off from age. Pretty sure it was something like a rubber cement that caused this. A similar compound was used on one of my Atari peripherals with a metallic label that just dropped off it one day with the same effect, like an un-licked postage stamp.

Or maybe it never had a sticker. Just offering an option.

When looking at the back, it would be on the right side, bottom. Not "THE" bottom, but rather the side, on the same side where the slots are cut.

It is a very thin aluminum/plasticized sticker. Not a plate. But a "sticker" sticker.. The adhesive is pretty tough and pliable till today. I can't imagine this coming off unless exposed to a hot and dry environment.

The number would be hand-written with a fine-point sharpie. It should consist of 6 digits.
My earlier model chassis has a number of 00154. My later one is 00960 IIRC.

I'm pretty sure they only made 1000 of these. And there are differences between the two, especially with the interface card. I think there might be a third intermediary version, again with differences in the interface card and manual style.

To help determine if it ever had the official sticker, try shining a flashlight at various angles looking for a shadow.

Hello AF-members,
here are the pictures from gsmcten. Please recognize that today i´ll upload the parts here.....
at the moment that parts are withput the links to the uncompressed images on my site. The uncompressed images are larger than 2 MB ( partialy up to 6 MB ) and that would significantly brake down the loading speed here in the site.... therefor they will be stored in my site and the links will be added/placed on Monday or Tuesday here right below the compressed ones here.

Due to the amount of pictures i splitted the pictures that have been taken up till now in 3 parts:
part1: the Interfacecard part2: the mainboard solderingside part3: the mainboard componentside

Please recognize that at the plan of the mainbaord in part3 the values noted in the plan are at the moment not trustworthy unless they have been confirmed by gsmcten.

Here is the first part. It´s treating the Interfacecard.

First the plans and then different kinds of views:

InterfaceCardPlan.jpg

Card_Front_BandW_300CPIsm.JPG

Card_Rear_Color_200CPI.jpg

Card_Rear_Grey_600CPI.JPG

completeTopviewcolor.JPG

TopviewLowfromlefttorightcompletecolor.JPG

Topviewfromlefttorightcolor.JPG

TopviewLowcompletecolor2.JPG

TopviewLowcompletecolor3.JPG

TopviewLowcompletecolor.JPG

TopviewLowfromlefttoleftcolor2.JPG

TopviewLowfromlefttoleftcolor.JPG

TopviewLowfromlefttomiddleandrightcolor.JPG

TopviewLowfromlefttomiddlecolor2.JPG


TopviewLowfromlefttomiddlecolor.JPG

TopviewLowfromlefttorightcolor.JPG

TopviewLowleftcolor.JPG

TopviewLowmidandrightcolor.JPG

TopviewLowrightcolor.JPG

Topviewrightcolor.JPG

Topviewrightcolor2.JPG

TopviewTopleftcolor.JPG


TopviewToprightcolor.JPG

Cablecomplete.jpg

The links to the hires pictures:
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Upload/InterfaceCardPlanBig.jpg
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Upload/IF_Topview1.jpg
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Upload/IF_Card_Rear_Color.jpg

sincerely speedyG

Hello AF-members,
here are the pictures from gsmcten. Please recognize that today i´ll upload the parts here.....
at the moment that parts are withput the links to the uncompressed images on my site. The uncompressed images are larger than 2 MB ( partialy up to 6 MB ) and that would significantly brake down the loading speed here in the site.... therefor they will be stored in my site and the links will be added/placed on Monday or Tuesday here right below the compressed ones here.

Due to the amount of pictures i splitted the pictures that have been taken up till now in 3 parts:
part1: the Interfacecard part2: the mainboard solderingside part3: the mainboard componentside

Please recognize that at the plan of the mainbaord in part3 the values noted in the plan are at the moment not trustworthy unless they have been confirmed by gsmcten.

Here is the second part. It´s treating the Mainboard on the solderingside.

First the plans and then different kinds of views:

Bottom:

Mainboardplan.jpg

Bottomsections.jpg

BottomsideTotalSM.jpg

BottomsideTotalSM2.jpg

Bottomviewcd34wComment.jpg

Please recognize in this very picture the added components that are soldered to the screws of the
2 MOS FET powertransistors ! They are not in the other pictures, but they are essential for removal
of noise on the powersource !

Bottomviewcd12.jpg

Bottomviewcd12_2.jpg

Bottomviewcd12_3.jpg


Bottomviewcd34_2.jpg

remark:

at the moment the further pictures of the chassis are missing.......
these will be taken from gsmcten while remounting the mainboard in the chassis
and they then will be added in a own posting.

Link to hires picture of Bottonside:
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Upload/Mainboard_Bottom_complete.jpg

sincerely speedyG

Hello AF-members,
here are the pictures from gsmcten. Please recognize that today i´ll upload the parts here.....
at the moment that parts are withput the links to the uncompressed images on my site. The uncompressed images are larger than 2 MB ( partialy up to 6 MB ) and that would significantly brake down the loading speed here in the site.... therefor they will be stored in my site and the links will be added/placed on Monday or Tuesday here right below the compressed ones here.

Due to the amount of pictures i splitted the pictures that have been taken up till now in 3 parts:
part1: the Interfacecard part2: the mainboard solderingside part3: the mainboard componentside

Please recognize that at the plan of the mainbaord in part3 the values noted in the plan are at the moment not trustworthy unless they have been confirmed by gsmcten.

Here is the third part. It´s treating the Mainboard on the componentside.

remark: In quite a lot of the pictures the big blue electrolytic caps are removed.
They have been replaced by gsmcten.

First the plans and then different kinds of views:

Componentside:

Mainboardplan.jpg

Topsections.jpg

T-abc123_2.jpg

T-abc123.jpg

T-a12.jpg

T-ab12.jpg

T-ab123.jpg

T-ab1234.jpg

T-ab1234_1.jpg

T-ab1234_2.jpg

T-ab1234_3.jpg

T-abcd123.jpg

T-abcd123_2.jpg

T-bc12.jpg

T-bc34.jpg

T-bc34.jpg

T-bcd123.jpg

T-bcd1234.jpg

T-bcd1234_1.jpg

T-bcd1234_2.jpg

T-bcd1234_4.jpg

T-cd1234.jpg

T-cd1234_1.jpg

Topviewc3.jpg

Topviewc12.jpg

Topviewcd12.jpg

Topviewcd34.jpg

Topviewcd34_2.jpg

Topviewd2.jpg

Topviewd4.jpg

Topviewd4_2.jpg

Topviewd12.jpg

remark:

Up till then have fun.....

sincerely speedyG

This is not a knock-off. It has far too many subtle similarities in soldering style and construction with my two chassis. Similarities that a counterfeiter would not pick up on. Or let alone bother. And faking such a niche piece of hardware wasn't popular anyways. Yours is genuine material.

If you did, somehow, determine the serial number, it is likely to be below 250, since this is a revision A board. And Mountain Hardware never put the S/N on the mainboards. Before all the cost cutting measures were put in place. The later versions have different masking on the mobo, smaller capacitors, smaller regulator transistors. No heatsinks.

This is the more desirable model, despite the interface card having jumpers and not dip switches. And the manual I put up on asimov IIRC is for the later version. I can't find my 1st run manual at the moment. But I have it.

In the past I've been offered $5,000 for my revision A chassis. Cool! But a bit ridiculous, don't you think?

And I wonder what happened to the other 997 units? It would be great if more of these pop out of the woodwork.

In order to properly maintain, repair, test, and modify the INTERFACE CARD. We must have a look inside, or, rather, underneath the chips.

I have gone ahead and photographed just that - all the "hidden" interconnections under the sockets, 50 pin edge connector, 50 pin cable connector, and jumper block area.

Combined with the existing photos, this should be enough to draw up a schematic of the interface card with no ambiguities. I'll be happy to clear up any grey areas with additional photos or measurements.

Send me PM or email when you got'da first few pics.

Keatah,

IT DOESN"T HAVE A Serial Number!

Do you believe that?!?! LOL

Where it should be is a big blank space. I wonder what that means?

Hmmm..... :)

Both mine don't either.

I could do a pinout of the resistor packs if needed.

@speedyg I did up the resistor packs. And located their datasheet. They're just tedious to figure out without close inspection at different angles. But with a real card in hand it's a breeze. Check your mail. Badabing!

@gsmcten - can you scan your manual or photograph the parts where it talks about configuring the jumpers and shows a general isometric view of the card. The pic with the basic outline and PP1 and PP2 jumpers.. ?

Hello to all AF members,

it´s a giant leap ahead that Keatah granted access to his collection of pictures from his Mountain Expansion Box.
I recieved from him a bunch of perfect very detailed pictures ( for example one picture per removed socket ! on one as "light-through" ) which enable to unfold the traces below the sockets.

In this very post i will add pictures resulting from that pictures after they have been asembled back again together to larger overviews. Later further pictures will be added with Keatah´s comment to special lines he has measured through to find out their final connection.

Here the first one with the assembeled Interfacecard "unsocketed". I also have redrawn the traces below the white printing for better tracing.

BeneathSocketsSM.jpg

and here is a link to a enlarged version of that picture which permits better "zoom in":
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Upload/BeneathSockets.jpg

i´ll add further material as soon as possible......

and once again : Thank you very much Keatah !

sincerely speedyG

Welcome.. that came out pretty nice. I'll have to do the same with the mainboard in the box.

I don't think I'm going to remove the 50-pin sockets. But from the looks of it there is only one or two traces I'll just ohm-them-out. All the rest is on the backside and easily visible. But we shall see.

Hello Steven,
correct.... link was given in previous page posting #47.......
sincerely speedyG

So it is. I zoomed right over it for sure.

I need to mention that this manual in post #47 is the 1982 version, and discusses the interface card with dip switches. So if Steven has a different manual - it would be great to have that posted.

Hello Steven,
no that´s not the reason - the reason was my mistake...
i have two different manuals and i unfortunately uploaded the wrong one and set that link....
i just corrected that a few minutes ago and set the second link with remark to my mistake below the first link...
sorry .... my fault.... i also sent notice to Keatah and explained my error...
sincerely speedyG

I don't know. This is Speedy's gig. I only planned on providing detailed photos of the mainboard in the near future. Much like I did with the interface card. To help with trace routing and clearing up uncertainties.

Hello gsmcten,
i sent you several days ago a map of the mainboard with red zones ... this parts i need a list...
the problem:.. the colors of the resistor rings can´t be read reliable due to lighting issues...
and the labels of the small signal transistors are not completely readable ...... and some labels of capacitors are not visible...
if you need that marked plan from the mainbaord again give me a note at emailadress and i will re-send it...
the Interfacecard seems to be complete....
sincerely speedyG

Hello AF-members.....
here is the first strike resulting from the pictures and data....
it´s the revised negativ from the solderingside of the IFcard from the mountainbox now with clear traces....
IFcardAnalysisSolderingside.gif

and here is the link to a pisture with high resolution...:
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Upload/IFcardAnalysisSolderingside.jpg

so it´s one of the steps to reengineer the circuitplan....
next step will be the analysis of the topside.... i´m off my place tommorow, so i can first start with the task
on Monday and it will probably take up 2 or 3 days to carry out that task.... so i hope to publish the topside
of the IFcard on Wednesday or Thursday.... depending to the problems i have to solve while analyzing the card...

so that´s now just for the moment one step ahead ... enjoy it

sincerely speedyG

If anything questionable shows up, I'll have my camera and dmm standing by.
I would suggest if something needs clarification or further examination; that the area be marked in red. And if where a trace goes is not clear, if possible, to list something it connects to.

One of the more elusive and rare bits of Apple 2 series hardware is now being scrutinized under a microscope. Excellent project.

Hello AF-Members,

it´s not complete ( 5 pins will be updated ) but it´s in a stage that you can view at the moment to be nearly finished.... the analysis of the Interface card:
the solderingside layer in red color
the componenside layer in blue color
and a combination of both layers in a larger picture.....
the 5 pins missing are at the connector plug and will be evaluated within next 48 hours... and the uploaded pictures will be updated then....
this will not cause any change here .... except minor change in display of the pictures....
the links themselves won´t change by that update....

http://www.harrowalsh.de/Upload/IFC/IFcardAnalysisBackRedSM.jpg

http://www.harrowalsh.de/Upload/IFC/IFcardAnalysisTopBlueSM.jpg

http://www.harrowalsh.de/Upload/IFC/IFcardAnalysisBackRedFrontBlueSM.jpg

with the finished updated layers i should be able to create the circuitplan within next 2 or 3 weeks to.....
when thats completed i´ll set link here too......
so enjoy just another step ahead in the task

sincerely SpeedyG

I'm thinking about doing something similar with the Alpha Syntauri interface cards and both versions of the Mountain Music System.

What is the interest level?

Hello Keatah,
well if it´s not urgent... my tasks will be completed one after each other ... well then i´d take part in the game.... but i can first start that somewhere in June or July.....
in fact i want to complete before the Sound- and speechcard... and that´s a task to be done after VCFe....
you just should remind me again in end of May or beginning of June....
sincerely speedyG

No it isn't urgent. And a time of june or july would be fine.
It's rare and already has good scanned user documentation.
Nothing technical. And all the software for these takes up about 47 floppies more or less.
All that's missing is good engineering references.

The SpaceRaiders ehancement is just out of this world. Makes a mockingboard sound like tin cans.

And IIRC the Mountain Music System and Alpha Syntauri keyboard was used to generate music
or sounds for TRON back in the day.

Hello Keatah,
the mainproblem is not the Hardware.... the pitfall is the MIDI-part of the card....
i treated this problem in the thread about the Sound- and Speechcard..... :
http://www.applefritter.com/content/hardware-developement-and-special-topics?page=1
starting an posting #75.....
nearly every company in the MIDI-scene had it´s own attempts and specs...
so the major problem is not the "external" software from the Floppies but rather more
the "internal" software in the Card (ROM´s)......
that´s the place these companies have hidden their neat secrets and copyprotection....
it´s the parts you won´t find any kind of documentation....

Well then, that makes it all the easier. The Mountain Music System nor the Alpha Syntauri boards have any kind of firmware. All TTL stuff. And in the case of MHMS, some analog outputs built-up from standard parts.

I don't recall seeing anything "custom" anywhere on these.

When I get time I will read though that other thread.

Hello Keatah,
if you only take a view to the IFcard your right.....
but that was the wrong place to look at......
take a risk and look inside the keyboard..... there the death of the reengineering....
every keyboard has inside not only the chips to make pulses and different kind of DTACK waveforming parts...
in general that keyboards also contain 8048 or similar like 8051... and that are microprocessor units with RAM and ROM inside...
and the secrets are there inside the ROM.....
the software on disk demands to specify which kind of keyboard is attached and the document how the software drives that keyboard never went "out of the house".....
in former days the companies requested very high licensing fees to grant infos on that topic....
another problem was that there have been 5 or 6 different kinds of protocol used with the MIDI-standard ...
nearly each company had it´s own standard....
using wrong protocol with wrong keyboard and the sound turned to become desastrous...
and the points explained here in few words are only small partial view ......

the result from this .... i can probably only reengineer the IFcard - that´s only a MIDI-interface....
but that´s the smallest part of reengineering a complete Synthisizer....
sincerely speedyG

Maybe you're right. I have no idea what is inside the keyboard. Eventually I'll take it apart.

Hello Keatah,
while doing research for the Sound- and Speechcard i had the luck to get a little material from the keyboard from Moog and very few material from Alpha Syntauri and partial circuitplans....
and i have seen some of the different specs on the used protocols from different companies....
that was the very reason i resigned from integrating a MIDIport on the card i am developing.....
at least i decided to step back from that integration for quite a while and instead get the rest of the card working....
it´s still difficult enough to integrate all the features that i want to get working on that card....
did you look at that card and the various functions in it ??
and i´m still tricking around to switch between that functions....
not to talk about the need to write a program for the speech recognition at the speechinput....
i had years ago a card with speechinput from VMC that permitted to speak in the editor instead of typing...
and i want this card to be able to do the same....

but back to the topic of this thread...:
today i worked on the analysis of the solderingside of the mainboard and i´m close to a point, where i can claim
the negativ film to be nearly complete.... so i´m getting faster to the point, where i need additional infos of the componentside....
sincerely speedyG

Hello to AF members,
here is a nearly completed preview of the film from the solderingside of the mainboardfrom the Mountain Expansion Box.
Tommorow the partial corrections should be complete ( minor removal of distorsion and minor corrections on the traces.... )
so hello to Keatah : the need of some picture from the mentioned topsection becomes more closly needed....
and hello to gsmcten : i do need the precise measurement of the mainboard in millimeters as soon as possible...
would you please make that measurement and mail it to me ( length x width ) - it´s required to set correct and precise scale to the film and i need it also for removing last distorsions....

as soon as this task is complete i´ll upload this part and set here a link to the large scale picture in high resolution ....
and start with analysis of the topside of the mainboard....

sincerely speedyG

Hello Keatah,
i have just sent you a email with details needed for the reengineering process.....

in the meantime i have updated the film from the solderingside so it now is nearly completed in the picure above...

the link to the large scale picture of the solderingside of the Mountain Expansion Box mainboard:
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Upload/MainboardSoldersideGreyRevision.jpg

hello to gsmcten,

if you don´t have a measurement in millimeter then send the measurements in inches and i will convert with internet tools....

i´m now starting with the component side as soon as possible hoping that some remaining required information
will soon arrive during the process....

in the meantime to all other AF members, happy weekend...

sincerely speedyG

Dis-assembly of one of my chassis is now in process. Next up is a good washing.

Box and board all cleaned and dusted. Sockets are not coming loose. I suspect longer duration heat (large ground planes) has allowed the sockets to mold themselves to the pins more thoroughly.

I will have to develop an alternate method of removal; different from what I did with the interface card.

Once I get these F*****G sockets off it is my intention to present the mainboard
in an unprecedented level of detail.

Check your mail daily till I say I'm done.

Hello Keatah,
if you mail me pictures from the trouble i maybe able to recognize which kind of sockets that realy are and assist you with advice....
in the year´s from the late 70´s till late 80´s i´ve seen nearly every socket on the market and most of them i can recognize from topview if i see derails after IC is unplugged....
sincerely speedyG

They are the same as on the interface card. Same brands.
I'm going to make a tool to lift them off evenly and smoothly
while warming the board to about 180`F.

What's going to be a shitkicker to figure out is T1.
The number printed on the transformer is a part number for
the ferrite cube itself. Made by Ferroxcube. The number
has nothing to do with what's inside. The number does not
describe the configuration or number of turns.

The winding is "proprietary" to Mountain I believe. If you can
call transformer windings proprietary that is.

While the inductor is made to come apart easily, I won't take
mine apart. The cover snaps off, but you would need to de-solder
stuff to get a complete disassembly and out-of-circuit condition.

Hello Keatah,
there is no need for that disassembly of the coil....
if the rest is known, that will be a math-job.....
after circuitplan is complete with the coil ( 2 coil-windings from one side -assumes to be "primary"
and 4 coil-windings at the other side - assumed to be "secondary" )
there just must be measured with ohm-meter which 2 solderpads belong to eachother and
to checkout if there is a coil-winding with 1 or 2 other connections
( i.e. 3 or 4 solderpads to 1 coil-winding ) - ( if, - then this should occure in secondary part )
and then measure the voltages at the solderpoints ( Rectangle oscillating voltage => AC ).
In fact this belongs to the powersupply
- so we know by the values of resistors and capacities at which frequency this
rectangle wave oscillator is swinging at the input....
and if we measure the voltages at the output pads -
we can do the math knowing the values from the outside of the ferrit-package and calculate the windings
( i.e. transformation factor )
the rest of that circuitary is equalizing the waves and filtering out the high frequency from the secondary part
and then stabilizing the voltage .....
so finally after the parts explained above have been done,
the rest is an afternoon math job.... nothing mystical there to be solved.... just arithmatics....
and besides... i realy only need the details at the marked points.... the rest is allready here....

if anything else is really required i´ll scream loud for help...
so thanks a lot...

sincerely speedyG