HELP!!!!! POWERMAC G3 BOOT PROBLEM!

Try to boot from your 10.2 CD while holding down the C key. If it boots, go to system preferences/startup and choose 10.2 as the startup. See if it will then boot in 10.2

If you were trying to install 9, presumably you have an os 9 cd. Can you start from that (holding down the C key as above), and delete whatever OS 9 system folder you've managed to leave on the hard drive?

Try resetting the pram...start the Mac, then immediately hold down the apple, option, p and r keys (cmd-opt-p-r). This resets the Mac's parameter ram, which holds information like the preferred startup disk/system.

If that doesn't work, try starting the Mac and holding just the option key. This should bring up a boot manager that may allow you to select OS X.

Just do the PRAM reset. It takes more than one reset to get it clear. Turn the computer on, hold the command-option-p-r keys down all at once, keep holding them down, the video will come on for a flash and then you'll hear the chimes sound once and the screen will go black, do not let go of the keys, keep holding them down, the video will come on again, and then it will chime again and go black, keep holding it for one more chime--three chimes in total--and then let go and the video will come on and the computer will start looking for a boot system, and probably it will find the OS X system and start working. It may take the computer a minute or two to find the system. Your OS X system in on an ATA hard drive that's directly connected to the motherboard, right. If it's connected to an ATA PCI card, or is in a SCSI drive connected to a SCSI card, the computer will have a hard time finding it--if it finds it at all. Any drive connected to the motherboard ATA bus has priority and is easy for the computer to find.

There's also an option (which I've never had the opportunity to try), of starting up with the "X" key held down, which forces a startup in OS X.

The B&W is a very temperamental motherboard. A lot of these key commands like holding option to select boot system, and probably the X thing, simply don't respond on the B&W.

Another, and better way to reset the PRAM, is simply to go in and remove the battery for a minute.

There's also a reset button located next to the battery. It's black. There's two black buttons there on the motherboard. The one closest to the battery is the reset. The other one turns on the computer.

Also, sorry to have to bring this up, but you're new here, you say. We really don't approve of people using HELP!!! and all caps in their titles. Don't worry, people will read your post without the emphatics.

Because sometimes others who may read this too need to be reminded as well. If I reminded you in one of your earlier threads, then why did you do it again? But looking at the tracking in your account I don't see you doing it in an earlier thread except your very first one which I didn't respond to, nor anyone else, because it was a buy and sell thread, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about when you say I did it to you before. That LOOK!! in your first thread is a really cheesy eBay or Craigslist seller technique which is even unwelcome on those sites, so I'm glad you didn't repeat that one. But hey, I'm not a moderator here. It was just a friendly reminder.

Despite all that, I'll give you some more advice anyway. Remove all the RAM except one stick, and move that one stick to another slot, and then try to start it up. If that doesn't work, then remove the firewire module. If that doesn't work, let the computer sit overnight and try starting it up tomorrow. That often works. Are you sure the jumper on the hard drive is set to Master? The CD drive and zip drive--if it has one--needs to be in a master/slave setup as well.

If you're doing something wrong in your posts(by way of following bad examples), it's good that other people who might make the same mistakes get a chance to be corrected beforehand.

It used to be the people with iPods who did the HELP!!! PLEASE HELP!!! HEEEEELLLLLLP!!! stuff which was annoying. Then Tom created the Applefritter Kiwi site to send all computer problem threads to which ended up with about 90% iPod problems, most of which were titled HELP!!!!! so not many of the regulars here bothered checking out that site. I never heard what happened to Kiwi. It disappeared, but so did all the iPoders. Where did it go, and where did they go? Not that I want them back. It's been pretty quiet here that way since they were redirected. Were they pushed down a well somewhere where they can scream HELP!! all day to their heart's content?

Just to clarify, as I was reading this thread and saw the discussion lean in the direction of using the option key, I was going to add the same comment that HC did. I have never seen the option key bring up a boot menu, on either a rev 1 or rev 2 B&W.

Often times we add to these threads not to belittle the original poster, but so that if someone searches and discovers them in the future, they get rewarded for that.

In addition, ideas are added that may have been already tried. It's better to give a suggestion that gets discarded, than to have not given it at all.

-- Macinjosh

Personally i think that info is stored on the HD

If you have, as you say, tried everything that's been suggested so far, then the only solution left would be to get an OS 10 CD.

How were you able to select an OS 9 system folder to begin with, if you hadn't installed one? Did you copy it across from an OS 9 CD? What happens when you try to boot from the OS 9 CD?

I did copy the system folder to the applications folder ...

!?!

Why is your System folder in your Applications folder? It belongs on the root of the drive, where the machine can actually find it to boot from it.

And i just get a gray screen when I boot from the OS 9 cd.

Is this a retail Mac OS 9 installer? A system-specific restore CD from another machine? An upgrade CD? A copy you Limewired and burned on a PC in the wrong format? There aren't a whole lot of reasons why a legitimate retail copy of OS 9 wouldn't boot this machine.

---

Any possibility that it just happened to be this hard drive's time to die? Do you have another HD to attempt an OS 9 install on?

I once had a Zip go bad in a B&W, and it prevented the machine from seeing *ANY* of the other drives. I removed the IDE cable from the Zip drive, and voila, the B&W sprung to life.

Have you tried any such troubleshooting with your machine? Eliminated the possibility of bad RAM by removing or reseating individual sticks? Reseated or removed individual PCI cards to see if they're causing trouble? Checked the IDE drives for proper Master/Slave jumpers? Removed the modem? Reseated the G3 processor? Checked the voltage on the PRAM battery?

Maybe you've done all these things, but the more information us poor geeks have out here, the more likely we'll be to solve this mystery.

The OS 9 system folder doesn't actually belong in the Applications folder. I don't know if it screws anything up or not if you do put it there. Doesn't seem like it should, but maybe someone here knows better. Just so I don't clutter up my main hard drive window with all the OS 9 folders (OS9 Applications, Documents, Installer Logs, etc.) I'll stick all the OS 9 stuff, including the system folder, into a folder titled Classic in the main window. But actually, on most of my computers I create a whole separate partition for my OS9/Classic. That way I can run OS9 utilities across it if needed. I actually burn a copy of a complete OS9 with extra utilities installed--like Diskwarrior, Techtool, etc.--onto a CD so I can boot from it in emergencies and when I want to run the utilities over the OS9/Classic partition. The one thing about doing that is, even with the utilities updated, the Classic extensions that are thrown onto OS9 when it's made into Classic confuse the OS9 utilities' system folder tests, so you have to click pass or ignore etc. when it reaches that problem when running a utility like Techtool 3. I don't remember if there's some kind of "blessing" of a system with OS X besides designating the Classic system in System Preferences, but maybe that's one problem you're having with your OS9. There's a "Fix OS9 permissions" in the File pulldown menu in OSX's Disk Utility you should run also, just as you should run "repair permissions" on a regular basis for your OS X.

One reason you're having your particular problem might be that your CD drive is not Apple compatible. It may be a PC drive that the previous owner put in that can't boot Mac systems.

Try following these steps exactly:

1) start up the computer, and at any point in your non-working boot process, insert your OS 9 CD.

2) Press the reset button

3) Immediately after pressing reset, hold down the cmd-opt-p-r keys, and keep holding them down until the Mac restarts twice.

4) Immediately after the second restart, hold down the C key, and don't let go of it until you see a smiling Mac.

At this point, you should try disconnecting the hard drive and see if it will boot from the CD. With the hard drive disconnected you shouldn't even need to push the C key. The computer will find the system on the CD if the CD drive is Mac compatible. If that doesn't work, then I'd pull the CD drive out and see what make and model it is, and whether it's got an Apple logo on it. The only PCI card in the machine right now is the video card, right? You also should have the firewire module removed. It's attached with a screw in the backplate and one in the module itself which is attached to a post on the motherboard, and a two or three pin connector, and it's removed by wiggling it off it's motherboard connector.

What does your OS9 CD look like? Is it gray or is it white with a big yellow 9?

Yes it is.

Yes to what? Is it gray? or is it white with a big orange 9?

did you make sure that all of the IDE cables are seated properly. i would make sure that the jumper settings are set correctly on the drives

My Yikes G4 had issues booting the Os 9 retail cd i had ( tried holding C, tried going into startup drive and set the CD as boot, tried holding nothing) and it would not boot, then it just started booting from it, i don't know what the issue was but it now boots the OS 9 install cd up fine.

they are on the back of the drive, near the cables

it should be set to master.

I have yet to see a Mac with an IDE drive. I know they exist (LC, the performas, and others http://www.mug.jhmi.edu/mirrors/InfoAlley/1195/14/technical.html), but I'd bet you have a SCSI drive/peripherals. Look your mac up on everymac.com to make sure.

did you make sure that all of the IDE cables are seated properly. i would make sure that the jumper settings are set correctly on the drives

My Yikes G4 had issues booting the Os 9 retail cd i had ( tried holding C, tried going into startup drive and set the CD as boot, tried holding nothing) and it would not boot, then it just started booting from it, i don't know what the issue was but it now boots the OS 9 install cd up fine.

DELETED TEXT

Looks like that has Ultra ATA, not sure what that means. I read that "ATA (Advanced Technology Attachment) refers to a common standard used to connect hard drives and other storage devices to a motherboard. It is also referred to as IDE (Integrated Drive Electronics), though the terms are not technically interchangeable." not interchangeable? don't know anything about that.

Sounds like it behaves like IDE (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=690167&tstart=0), so... um, ok.

Maybe I'm missing some subtle humour, but unless the Mac has a third-party scsi card, it's IDE. First post, poster says it's a blue and white G3.

I think all this hardware stuff is only going to confuse our already confused new Mac owner.

The problem he's experiencing was a software problem caused by user error. All this talk of jumpers and drives magically hopping out of their connectors coincidentally at the exact same time he copied a 9.0 CD system folder to his Apps folder and tried to boot from it are not serving any purpose other than to confound the issue.

Not saying this as a moderator, just as someone who'd rather see this guy helped out of his jam before someone convinces him to take his power supply apart, or turns him off Macs completely as being too complicated.

Plop1234: Did you follow the numbered directions in my post above to try booting from the CD again?

If that doesn't work, put this aside until you get yourself an OS X CD.

...You gotta watch out for those fumes coming out of a bad PSU, especially if someone's put some SCSI peyote in there. That stuff can be gnarly.

Ok, I believe he's tried the remove and replace the battery thing already, right?, so the whole resetting the PRAM thing ain't working. This brings up the question of whether the battery is dead or not. If it's never been replaced before, it's probably dead. The B&W is a ten year old computer. A dead battery might be the source of all of this.

He had the hard drive running before, so most likely the drive is set to Master or Cable Select, both of which the stock IDE/ATA cable can handle. See here.

Once upon a time he booted from the OS9 CD, and that time was the only time he has booted from a CD since he has had the computer.

First off, putting OS9 onto a hard drive which already has OS X on it is not such an easy thing, and of course, especially if the hard drive was not originally formatted with OS 9 drivers, so his attempt to "put" OS 9 onto his drive to begin with was doomed from the start. I'm still not sure what he did in regards to that. Did he install OS 9 onto the hard drive--this I kindof doubt. Did he simply copy the boot OS 9 system on the OS 9 CD to the hard drive and put it into the Applications folder--this I kindof suspect. That, of course, is a minimal system simply used to boot the CD. To put OS 9 on an OS X HD, see here:
http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20060621071707921
There's also instructions somewhere on Apple's site. Woe to those who did not click "install OS 9 disk driver" when formatting for an OS X installation--which is what I'm suspecting is the case here. So anyway, the hard drive is probably scrambled and may not be bootable anymore, and all the resetting in the world ain't going to put that Humpty Dumpty back together. And the only possible remedy for that would be to boot from another OS X hard drive or CD and see if OS X Disk Utility can recover the scrambled hard drive to its previous healthy condition, which, in most of the cases like this that I've encountered, it can't, and the only hope is to be able to recover important data from the drive. DiskWarrior can work miracles sometimes.

The goal now should be simply to see if the machine will boot anything, and the first place to start is the OS 9 CD.

Disconnect the hard drive from the motherboard. Disconnect the hard drive cable at the motherboard. Remove the battery (I think the B&W can work fine without a battery, but my memory is foggy on that).

If you have a zip drive, disconnect the cable from it. Hopefully the zip is jumpered to Slave and the CD drive is jumpered to Master, so disconnecting the zip would not affect the chain to the CD drive. The zip should have been connected to the middle connector on the cable and the CD drive to the end connector. Make sure the cable's end connector is seated snuggly into its slot in the back of the CD drive. Might as well make sure the power connector is snuggly in place too.

Make sure the OS 9 CD is in good condition and clean. We could be dealing with a messed up OS 9 CD and a messed up hard drive. There are ways to wipe a CD with a cleaning cloth, and ways not to. Google for the proper technique if you aren't familiar with it. The worst kind of damage to a CD is actually damage to the printed side. Make sure the printed side, as well as the down side, doesn't have any nasty scratches. Have the OS 9 CD in the CD drive. See if it boots with no hard drive connected, and no battery installed. It may require some time--minutes--for the computer to find the OS 9 CD boot system. Listen to hear if the CD drive is even spinning up. I have had non-Apple branded third party CD drives which booted sometime, and did not boot at all other times, so just since it booted once, that does not mean it's a Mac compatible drive. You may have simply been lucky on that one boot, and if so, probably because everything else was working fine. If you don't hear it spinning up, I'd gamble it's either not a Mac drive or you've got a bad motherboard.

If the CD boot still does not happen, then you've got two choices. Either try a different CD drive, or put in another IDE/ATA drive in the machine which already has a Mac OS 8.6, 9, or X system on it and hope it boots. If that doesn't work, I'd say you've screwed the motherboard somehow, which isn't the end of the world because B&W motherboards can be had on eBay for $5 these days.

And get a nice new battery, which range from $19 at Radioshack to $5 on eBay.

Boy, I like to write, don't I? I should stop looking for distractions and get back to my breadwinning. This thread's been a lot of work for a simple old B&W. What is this compulsive inputting behavior some of us fall into here at Applefritter? Is there a name for it?

If it doesn't boot from an OS9 CD, it's not going to boot from an OS X CD. Unless the OS9 CD is damaged it ain't the CD. Why you won't do the other things suggested is a mystery to me. The B&W is one of the easiest Macs to get into. Pop the door and you're there. Best wishes.

I did not:
Disconnect the fire wire
take out the battery
unplug all the IDE cables
check the jumpers
take out the DVD drive
boot from an os 10.2 cd
and did not move the memory

What i did do:
reset the PRAM
and tried to boot from an os 9 cd

I'm going to TRY to track down an os 10.2 CD from my school. Me and the tech coordinator are friends.

You guys are confusing me beyond belief and I can't take it!!!! :O

You'll be alright, i bet its one simple thing causing a mess up. I've dealt with my B&W alot. they are picky about a lot of things, but they are good machines.

The folder with the face means it cannot find a system to boot from anywhere, hard drive or no hard drive. The "OS 9 thing" only comes up when it's trying to boot from an OS 9 system--either on a hard drive or a CD--so no hard drive or CD installed, no OS 9 thing, only the blinking folder.

I'm too lazy to reread this thread so I don't remember what you've tried. A bad hard drive could certainly be the case, or a bad system install. Did you remove the firewire module. Make sure you do that before trying anything else. If you get it working, you can always put the module back in, and see what happens. Don't bother with OS 10.2 if you don't already have it. Get 10.3 which must be dirt cheap on eBay these days.

i admire the patience of those here.
Please correct me if i'm wrong, the mac smiley face is the end of it's board hardware test ok icon. if there is a hardware problem and the machine can get thru the test far enough it will sound a death chime noise or frown face indicating a hardware test failure. the question mark indicates it cannot find a system to boot.
this machine worked before it was fixed. if it's reassembled properly now it will work again.
buy another similar machine on ebay with system disks and have one to enjoy while you practice handling cables and such. fixing this having a whole set of known good parts will be simple. some of that stuff is easily damaged even after practice and can be tricky to find once damaged.
this being my first post here feel free to correct my presentation (-: