Apple II 16k Language Card

If you want to go modern, there are much better alternatives:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255145476189

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175272749725

I agree with CVT, if you're going with a modern card, might as well get one of the 128k Saturn clones instead of a 16K card...  There are even some Saturn compatibles that are more than 128k.  Not everything will use more than 16k of course, but things that do, might as well have it.

DrkStarr wrote:

Thanks for the input. I wouldn't even have thought about those cards. I'll probably go with the first one. It looks like I should be able to plug it into slot 0 and it will work as a 16K card.

 

- Thanks for the help

 

Yes, I've used Saturn type cards in Slot 0 of a ][+ or clone and it works great.

About a year ago I got this one myself: https://www.ebay.com/itm/314617579660 - works like a charm too.

I've wondered about a board with RAM addressable beyond 128K ?!?

I like the Saturn RAM board because it works the same as a 16K language card.

http://www.applelogic.org/files/SATURN128MAN.pdf

Control

Address  Function

$C0N0    4K Bank A; RAM read; Write protect

$C0N1    4K Bank A; ROM read; Write enabled

$C0N2    4K Bank A; ROM read; Write protect *

$C0N3    4K Bank A; RAM read; Write enabled

$C0N8    4K Bank B; RAM read; Write protect

$C0N9    4K Bank B; ROM read; Write enabled

$C0NA    4K Bank B; ROM read; Write protect *

$C0NB    4K Bank B; RAM read; Write enabled

$C0N4    select 16K Bank 1

$C0N5    select 16K Bank 2

$C0N6    select 16K Bank 3

$C0N7    select 16K Bank 4

$C0NC    select 16K Bank 5

$C0ND    select 16K Bank 6

$C0NE    select 16K Bank 7

$C0NF    select 16K Bank 8

https://www.applefritter.com/content/saturn-128k

I've got a related hijack question, I've recently acquired a II+ and B&H II+. I have never had a II+, month 1 //e was my first Apple so the lanugage card/ IIPlus memory is not totally clear to me.The vader came empty so I wanted to add a lanugage card/memory, but don't IIPluses support both languages?  I like the GW RAM option, that looks like consumes much less power than the older cards.The II+ I got came with a lowercase mod, as well as memory that may be out to 128K, but it needs work before it will start up so I have some work to do before searching out cards.

My question is, do I only need RAM? Or do I need a language card too? I'm prepared that most of my //e wares won't do anyhting on a plus so I got some learnging to do.

Another option was Legend S'Card and clones of it.  (eg: Nexo Super Expander+, Abacus Know Drive)

Saturn's RAM card was limited to 128KB because its selection scheme could offer only 8 banks of 16KB each.  Legend's scheme could address 4MB, but most cards supported only 1MB.

The Legend system was sufficiently popular in the 1980's that most contemporary software supported both schemes: PlusWorks, Locksmith, Disk Muncher, DiversiCopy,  etc. all supported both Saturn (128KB) and Legend (4MB) expansion cards.

A more-recent option is Ian Kim's Hyperion 512KB expansion card, which emulates four 128KB Saturn cards.  But it's only supported as 128KB by classic software.

Any of these cards can be used like a Language Card in Slot 0, but Hyperion's capabilities are limited to 128KB in that configuration.

For what it's worth, here's a diagram from Apple Thesaurus that explains and compares the Saturn vs Legend memory acccess schemes.  (Click to enlarge)

IMG_0736.JPG

jeff d wrote:

I've got a related hijack question, I've recently acquired a II+ and B&H II+. I have never had a II+, month 1 //e was my first Apple so the lanugage card/ IIPlus memory is not totally clear to me.The vader came empty so I wanted to add a lanugage card/memory, but don't IIPluses support both languages?  I like the GW RAM option, that looks like consumes much less power than the

The ][+ did not support both languages (Applesoft and Woz's INTBASIC) out of the box without adding a card.  Either the "language card" or some other 16K RAM card or the INTBASIC ROM card were what was generally available in those days.  Later the Saturn cards came out as an extension of the 16k card design.  Them came other cards with different addressing schemes, Apple's "slinky" card, AE RAMFactor, etc.  The latter two are some that supported > 128k, in fact they usually started at 256k and went up to 1m or more, up to 8m per slot.  There are Saturn clones which support up to 512k, like the one Ian Kim from Korea makes, but most clones are reduced chip count but 128k.  The reduced chip count cards almost surely use a ton less juice.

S.Elliott wrote:

Another option was Legend S'Card and clones of it.  (eg: Nexo Super Expander+, Abacus Know Drive)

Saturn's RAM card was limited to 128KB because its selection scheme could offer only 8 banks of 16KB each.  Legend's scheme could address 4MB, but most cards supported only 1MB.

The Legend system was sufficiently popular in the 1980's that most

Is there a PDF of that Apple Thesaurus online anywhere?  I don't remember that book.  Looks like it is full of interesting info.

Googling for Apple Thesaurus, this is about the only useful hit I've found...  Albiet "out of print limited availabilty" doesn't help much.  Alas.

https://www.amazon.com/Apple-Thesaurus-Aaron-Filler/dp/0881903469

Wow, that is really interesting!

About 3 months ago I acquired a very rare broken bulgarian 128k card from the 80s that was the official 128k card for the Pravetz 82:

Pravetz 82 128k card.jpg

I fixed it and replaced the modern Saturn clone from eBay that was in my Pravetz 82 until then. I couldn’t find any information about it though, so I went though every single 128k card in the Azimov archive and discovered that is was an almost 1:1 clone of the Legend Soft Disk 128k:

Legend Soft Disk 128k.jpg

I know exactly why they decided to clone this particular card too: it was the only one realized entirely with standard 74-series TTL chips. All the other ones had some sort of specialized memory controller.

Is there an easy way to tell which memory acccess scheme it is using? It works perfectly as a 16k language card too.

CVT wrote:

Wow, that is really interesting!

 

About 3 months ago I acquired a very rare broken bulgarian 128k card from the 80s that was the official 128k card for the Pravetz 82:

Have you tried it with the Saturn software?

I remember Legend Industries, but not that particular card.  It looks like the Bulgarian version isn't quite a 1:1 clone, but slightly improved.  It appears to have a couple different or at least differently placed chips and if you look the Legend card appears to need a chip from the motherboard replaced by a jumper like Apple's 16k card, presumably for refresh signals for the DRAM chips.  The Pravetz card must generate it's own refresh, which is a definite bonus.

A google search for the Legend Industries 123KDE SOFT DISK revealed this link back to this site... 

https://www.applefritter.com/content/memory-board-legend-industries-128kde-soft-disk

and that link contains this link to the manual...

http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Interface%20Cards/Memory/Legend%20Soft%20Disk%20128k/Manuals/Legend%20Soft%20Disk%20128k%20Manual.pdf

Looking at the picture you posted of the Legend card it appears to possibly be the same one as on Apple II Documentation Project, so it may not be new info for you.  But it might be useful to someone else.

This, however maybe you don't have...  Looks like the software disk images for that card...

From Antoine Vignau who is well known in the Apple II world. 

https://archive.org/download/Antoine_Applesauce_Vignau/128KDE%20%28Legend%20Industries%29/

Nice collection of stuff if you look a directory up from this too.

softwarejanitor wrote:

Have you tried it with the Saturn software?

 

I remember Legend Industries, but not that particular card.  It looks like the Bulgarian version isn't quite a 1:1 clone, but slightly improved.  It appears to have a couple different or at least differently placed chips and if you look the Legend card appears to need a chip from the motherboard replaced by a jumper like Apple's 16k card, presumably for refresh signals for the DRAM chips.  The Pravetz card must generate it's own refresh, which is a definite bonus.

 

Yep, this is exactly what they have done. The two chips on the bottom left are used to generate the refresh and thus eliminating the need for a ribbon cable. In fact the top one in the orange socket was the one that had gone bad. There is a 2 MHz signal running thought 5 of the 6 inverters inside the 7404 chip in order to create a delay. This puts a lot of stress on that one chip, which is why I added the socket myself in case it breaks again.

Thanks for the links. I'll try the software and see if I get something different compared to the modern 128k Saturn clone.

DrkStarr wrote:

I thought I'd show the language card that I'm replacing. The thing is throwing all sorts of errors, and won't load interger basic.

 

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Tnat looks like a Saturn clone. Have you tried runing Saturn diag program?

It is definitely a Saturn clone. Have you tried running the Apple ][ RAM test utility on it?

Hmm, I don't think there is a problem with your Saturn clone at all. Both my 128k RAM cards (the green in the picture below and the one in post #13) show some bad state under Card Tests of the Apple II+ Dealer Service Diagnostics, yet they pass Locksmith and the Apple ][ RAM test utility with flying colors.

Not only that, but I am also unable to use my MultiROM card when either one of my 128k cards is plugged in. I contacted the author of the MultiROM card, but he is not sure why that is. However he said that there is no problem with his 128k Saturn clone, which I don't have in my collection (the second eBay link in post #2 above). I know this guy pretty well and I believe him.

The MultiROM card works fine with a regular 16K Language card though.

IMG_5959.JPG

How are you trying to load integer basic?

What I meant is what method are you using to load integer basic? (Are you using a Multi-ROM card, are you manually changing ROMs or what?)

Hmm, I am not sure - I have to check. I usually use my Multi-ROM card when I want to use Integer Basic.

Update: It looks like there is something wrong with your Saturn clone after all. I just tried Apple II Trek from Asimov on both of my 128k cards and it works fine with both. I even saw the > prompt before the game loaded, indicating that it switched to Integer Basic.

I hope the new Saturn clone you ordered works out for you!

DrkStarr wrote:

Isn't Integer Basic loaded when you insert the floppy? I thought that I.B. was loaded into the 16K language card and then the program starts. Not swapping anything. Isn't that how it works?

If the boot disk has all the right files on it and the right "hello" program it will load IntBASIC to the 16k card.  If your program disk isn't set up like that you can boot from an Apple DOS 3.3 System Master which will do that, then you can put the program disk in and run IntBASIC programs and it should switch for you.

That's actually my board design - https://github.com/btb/LanguageCard

It works fine, but it's true that it doesn't offer any great value compared to a modern cheap saturn-type card.

However it's open source, doesn't use any programmable logic, and can be DIY'd for probably around $10 including the PCB.

We're all going off on tangents here.

Yes, there are 128K card options for the II+, but only 0.1% of software in the wild will be able to access it.

The only real utility that large RAM cards have are for self-written programs that can regognize and take advantage of the extra RAM (and it's addressing, bank-switching peculiarities) and some RAM-Disk software that can take advantage of the extra RAM, but even those are few and far between with limited utility.

Appleworks comes to mind, but you're limited to using an early version, with a patch disk for II+ use and another for Saturn 128K use. 

Anyway, I own large RAM cards and have one installed in my II+ and honestly, the most useful thing that it does is allow me to copy disks using Locksmith 6.0 in a single pass rather than three passes.  I used to run a BBS back in the 80s and having a RAM disk was handy back then when you're doing a lot of data swapping to disk - it sped things up a lot - but those are extremely niche applications.

So what to do?

Either a standard 16K RAM card with a strap to the last RAM chip, one of the "strapless" 16K RAM cards that sometimes come up for sale, or the Saturn "clone" from Garrett's Workshop.  Those cards will only work as 16K cards anyway (in slot zero) for 99.9% of the software you decide to run.  And if you exclusively play games, well...90% of the time you don't need the extra 16K at all, unless, us you say, you want to play an Integer BASIC game, in which case you'll need the RAM card along with a DOS 3.3 system master diskette that will load Integer to the upper 16K for you.

Incidentally, I don't recommend building a modern, reduced chip-count Saturn "clone" card from online resources.  The II+ is pretty finicky with BUS signal timing, and I had a brutal time getting that Saturn clone card to work.  Theoretically it ought to have worked with standard parts, but required 74HTC high speed chips and paradoxically, a slower GAL and SRAM chips than what should have worked.  It took weeks to figure out.

baldrick wrote:

...

And if you exclusively play games, well...90% of the time you don't need the extra 16K at all, unless, us you say, you want to play an Integer BASIC game, in which case you'll need the RAM card along with a DOS 3.3 system master diskette that will load Integer to the upper 16K for you.

...

If you exclusively play games, you will definitely want to run Total Replay and Instant Replay, in which case you will need the extra 16K.

bradleyb wrote:

That's actually my board design - https://github.com/btb/LanguageCard

It works fine, but it's true that it doesn't offer any great value compared to a modern cheap saturn-type card.

However it's open source, doesn't use any programmable logic, and can be DIY'd for probably around $10 including the PCB.

I found it super interesting and a great modern solution for a 16k Language Card. I assembled 3 to install in my Apple IIs but in all of them when I try to use ProDOS for example it crashes. I'm using Cy7C185 on my boards. Could you give me some tips?